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>Google is COPPA compliant and will not let children, without parental consent, sign up for things on their own. How does Google do that? By having a 13 year

>Google is COPPA compliant and will not let children, without parental consent, sign up for things on their own. How does Google do that? By having a 13 year old agree to Terms and Conditions/EULA (a legal contract), that the child has no legal authority to enter, which states the child obtained legal consent from the parents?

yorwba 8y ago
I think it's the parents who are expected to agree to the contract, thereby expressing their consent. Then if a child does it on their own, they are committing fraud against the company, which can then claim to be the victim and deflect all blame.
- will_brown 8y ago
  That’s cute but not at all how contract Law works. Minors don’t have legal authority to enter into contracts, Google can’t claim (at least it’s not a legal defense) they were defrauded by a minor for agreeing to their contract that expressly states the minor will get their parents consent or permission. The burden is on Google. Google would be liable for collecting data on the minor in violation of law, notwithstanding any agreement the minor agreed to, because that agreement isn’t legally enforceable.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    According to this FTC site https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/childrens-online-privacy-protection-rule-not-just-kids-sites https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/chi... You’re covered by COPPA if: - Your website or online service is directed to children under 13 and collects personal information from them; - Your website or online service is directed to a general audience, but you have “actual knowledge” you’re collecting personal information from a child under 13; or - You run a third-party service like an ad network or plug-in and you’re collecting information from users of a site or service directed to children under 13. and Although the Rule doesn’t define the term, the FTC has said that an operator has actual knowledge of a user’s age if the site or service asks for – and receives – information from the user that allows it to determine the person’s age. For example, an operator who asks for a date of birth on a site’s registration page has actual knowledge as defined by COPPA if a user responds with a year that suggests they’re under 13. An operator also may have actual knowledge based on answers to “age identifying” questions like “What grade are you in?” or “What type of school do you go to? (a) elementary; (b) middle; (c) high school; (d) college.” Note the "if a user responds with a year that suggests they’re under 13" part. If they don't, that would mean that there's no "actual knowledge" that the data being collected is associated with a child under 13. So "they lied to me" does appear to be a valid defense.
    - will_brown 8y ago
      The law only provides if the child answered and acknowledged they are a minor that Google has “actual knowledge” in law that does != google does not have actual knowledge if the minor lied or didn’t answer. It’s simply a matter of the burden of proof, but in either case I think the evidence will be there that Google knew or should have known the user was/is a minor. COPPA also requires “verifiable” consent of the minor’s parents...is a check box really verifiable consent? How can Even Google claim they verified who checked the consent box?
jchw 8y ago
By not allowing them to do so on their own.
- will_brown 8y ago
  What’s the system/mechanism that doesn’t “allow” them to do it on their own. A legal disclaimer? That isn’t sufficient, You can’t contract around the law. In other words a minor can’t enter a contract, therefore, I can’t contract with a minor and include a provision that says the minor isn’t a minor and if they are then they got parental consent. Google is the master of information. It would strike me if any company knew or should have known a user signing up for their service is a minor it should be them. Google literally makes it available to minors to agree to these contracts, so when you say google doesn’t allow them to...what do you really mean?
  - yorwba 8y ago
    According to https://support.google.com/families/answer/7103338#signup_fee https://support.google.com/families/answer/7103338#signup_fe... the verification mechanism is to use a credit card, which is one of the methods listed as "reasonably calculated" under point H.4 of this FAQ https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-coppa-frequently-asked-questions#Verifiable%20Parental https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/com...
    - will_brown 8y ago
      It’s clever of Google to tie verification to the parents credit card...of course in practice, in no way does that serve as actual verification a minor has consent of the parent to sign up for the Google service (I think we saw this is in enough cases with minors making in app purchases with parents credit card thru the App Store) but surely it places the parent in an unenviable position to make a claim Google unlawfully collected information on their child without parental consent even when true.
      - jchw 8y ago

yorwba 8y ago

I think it's the parents who are expected to agree to the contract, thereby expressing their consent. Then if a child does it on their own, they are committing fraud against the company, which can then claim to be the victim and deflect all blame.

will_brown 8y ago
That’s cute but not at all how contract Law works. Minors don’t have legal authority to enter into contracts, Google can’t claim (at least it’s not a legal defense) they were defrauded by a minor for agreeing to their contract that expressly states the minor will get their parents consent or permission. The burden is on Google. Google would be liable for collecting data on the minor in violation of law, notwithstanding any agreement the minor agreed to, because that agreement isn’t legally enforceable.
- yorwba 8y ago
  According to this FTC site https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/childrens-online-privacy-protection-rule-not-just-kids-sites https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/chi... You’re covered by COPPA if: - Your website or online service is directed to children under 13 and collects personal information from them; - Your website or online service is directed to a general audience, but you have “actual knowledge” you’re collecting personal information from a child under 13; or - You run a third-party service like an ad network or plug-in and you’re collecting information from users of a site or service directed to children under 13. and Although the Rule doesn’t define the term, the FTC has said that an operator has actual knowledge of a user’s age if the site or service asks for – and receives – information from the user that allows it to determine the person’s age. For example, an operator who asks for a date of birth on a site’s registration page has actual knowledge as defined by COPPA if a user responds with a year that suggests they’re under 13. An operator also may have actual knowledge based on answers to “age identifying” questions like “What grade are you in?” or “What type of school do you go to? (a) elementary; (b) middle; (c) high school; (d) college.” Note the "if a user responds with a year that suggests they’re under 13" part. If they don't, that would mean that there's no "actual knowledge" that the data being collected is associated with a child under 13. So "they lied to me" does appear to be a valid defense.
  - will_brown 8y ago
    The law only provides if the child answered and acknowledged they are a minor that Google has “actual knowledge” in law that does != google does not have actual knowledge if the minor lied or didn’t answer. It’s simply a matter of the burden of proof, but in either case I think the evidence will be there that Google knew or should have known the user was/is a minor. COPPA also requires “verifiable” consent of the minor’s parents...is a check box really verifiable consent? How can Even Google claim they verified who checked the consent box?

jchw 8y ago

By not allowing them to do so on their own.

will_brown 8y ago
What’s the system/mechanism that doesn’t “allow” them to do it on their own. A legal disclaimer? That isn’t sufficient, You can’t contract around the law. In other words a minor can’t enter a contract, therefore, I can’t contract with a minor and include a provision that says the minor isn’t a minor and if they are then they got parental consent. Google is the master of information. It would strike me if any company knew or should have known a user signing up for their service is a minor it should be them. Google literally makes it available to minors to agree to these contracts, so when you say google doesn’t allow them to...what do you really mean?
- yorwba 8y ago
  According to https://support.google.com/families/answer/7103338#signup_fee https://support.google.com/families/answer/7103338#signup_fe... the verification mechanism is to use a credit card, which is one of the methods listed as "reasonably calculated" under point H.4 of this FAQ https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-coppa-frequently-asked-questions#Verifiable%20Parental https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/com...
  - will_brown 8y ago
    It’s clever of Google to tie verification to the parents credit card...of course in practice, in no way does that serve as actual verification a minor has consent of the parent to sign up for the Google service (I think we saw this is in enough cases with minors making in app purchases with parents credit card thru the App Store) but surely it places the parent in an unenviable position to make a claim Google unlawfully collected information on their child without parental consent even when true.
    - jchw 8y ago