10 ms·

How the octopus got its smarts

madeuptempacct 8y ago
"So far, the octopus has revealed three big clues as to how it generates brain complexity: it has multiplied its set of circuit-building protocadherin genes and its network-regulating zinc fingers. It has also unleashed RNA editing to generate more complexity on the fly." Could someone elaborate on the last sentence please?
- jaspwn 8y ago
  RNA editing involves modifying transcripts such that one gene can encode for many separate proteins. The different proteins may only differ at few amino acids but these modifications typically occur in functional domains eg ligand binding sites, pore domains etc. This allows an increase in functional diversity without an increase in genomic complexity.
  - gumby 8y ago
    I don't know why this was down voted so far it was killed so I vouched for it. It is however a bit obscure. Perhaps this could be rephrased in more common HN terms as "the octopus's genetic mechanism quite aggressively uses epigenetic mechanisms" or "calls genetic 'subroutines' in ways unfamiliar in chordates (like us). I found it weird that the article called the octopus' brain morphology "weird" given that we really only have one other model (again, that of vertebrates) to follow. Though there are more vertebrates by far, perhaps the octopus makes more sense and we are the centralised weirdos?
    - fastball 8y ago
      I don't know, I quite like the fact that I only need to protect my cranium in order to safeguard by intelligence. It would be a bummer if a lot of neural processing was happening in my arm and my arm was lopped off.
    - aesh2Xa1 8y ago
      "Weird" does not mean "bad" — just different [from what we commonly expect]. Anyway, there are also some aspects to the physiology that you might not expect, such as the esophagus running through the center of the executive brain. A bit of crab shell might pierce it, for example.
      - danans 8y ago
        > "Weird" does not mean "bad" I tend to agree, but it's interesting that depending on how much the norms of one's prevailing culture emphasize conformity, as they have in the recent past, "weird" can be interpreted as a pejorative.
    - dmd 8y ago
      What do you mean “there are more vertebrates by far”? By any measure (number of species, number of organisms alive, biomass) invertebrates VASTLY outnumber vertebrates.
      - gumby 8y ago
        Sorry, I meant "vertebrates with brains"
    - nothrabannosir 8y ago
      meta: dead comments / shadow bans can be for other reasons than down votes. some new accounts get shadow banned immediately; I assume there's some anti spam stuff working on the backend. This was @jaspwn's first comment, so that's probably what happened. It's a great use case for vouching.
  - callesgg 8y ago
    This allows an increase in functional diversity without an increase in genomic complexity. is it not more like the genomic complexity is moved from one place in the DNA to another. Something has to code for the the RNA editing.
    - AstralStorm 8y ago
      It's like compression - the unpacker plus compressed data takes less space than directly writing all modified copies. It is actually higher complexity but shorter code. More vulnerable to mutations in one sense (damaging codon hits multiple genes), but less in another (shorter length means lower likelihood of damaging a codon).
- daddylonglegs 8y ago
  The 'normal' process is that a cell starts with it's permanent DNA in the nucleus. Part of the DNA [1] is transcribed to a string of RNA, this RNA is translated to a protein. There is an encoding where the sequence of base pairs along the DNA strand unambiguously specifies the sequence of amino acids that form the protein. The proteins then do the work in the cell (eg. the protocadherins and zinc fingers article mentions). This isn't the only way, and biologists seem to love studying the exceptions, but it is the main pattern found so far. This is the dogma the article refers to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_dogma_of_molecular_biology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_dogma_of_molecular_bio... Cephalopods edit their RNA before translation to a protein on a huge scale. Apparently 60% of the RNA sequences in a squid brain study were modified (presumably before translation to a protein) https://phys.org/news/2015-03-squid-enrich-dna-blueprint-prolific.html https://phys.org/news/2015-03-squid-enrich-dna-blueprint-pro... So most of the proteins in that squid brain are not in it's genome (although similar ones are). This is very simplified and I am not a biologist. [1] Roughly speaking each bit of DNA that does this is a gene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code
blattimwind 8y ago
> While the octopus has a large central brain in its head, it also has a unique network of smaller ‘brains’ within each of its arms. It’s just what these creatures need to coordinate the mind-boggling complexity of eight prehensile arms and hundreds of sensitive suckers, which provide the octopus with the equivalent of opposable thumbs (roboticists have been taking note). A neurological network of loosely-coupled semi-autonomous subsystems...
- rusk 8y ago
  Humans actually have a much more simplified system like this for coordinating fine motor movement. Bunches of neural tissue at each vertebrae and a few other strategic sites around the body can fire independently as reflexes. Also stomach has a large amount of intelligence going on. Second largest concentration after the cranium.
  - thomasfedb 8y ago
    The enteric nervous system is interesting, but I'm not sure I'd call it intelligent. For one thing, you can chop big bits out of it with no adverse effects.
    - close04 8y ago
      You can mostly do the same for parts of the central nervous system also. [0][1] While you are probably right I'm not sure if the argument actually justifies the conclusion. It could be argued that the more advanced the system, the more it can recover from losing parts by implementing redundancies and adaptation mechanisms. [0] https://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tech/2014/09/how-it-possible-live-fairly-normally-half-your-brain-missing https://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tech/2014/09/how-it-possibl... [1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9akj4z/what-its-like-to-live-with-half-a-brain https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9akj4z/what-its-l...
    - srean 8y ago
      Well you can blow a freaking crowbar through your brain violently enough that it lands almost a hundred feet behind you and yet the lasting effect might not be much worse than a noticeable change in personality EDIT "I first noticed the wound upon the head before I alighted from my carriage, the pulsations of the brain being very distinct. The top of the head appeared somewhat like an inverted funnel, as if some wedge-shaped body had passed from below upward. Mr. Gage, during the time I was examining this wound, was relating the manner in which he was injured to the bystanders. I did not believe Mr. Gage's statement at that time, but thought he was deceived. Mr. Gage persisted in saying that the bar went through his head. Mr. G. got up and vomited; the effort of vomiting pressed out about half a teacupful of the brain [through the exit hole at the top of the skull], which fell upon the floor" [0] [0] Harlow, John Martyn (December 13, 1848). Passage of an Iron Rod Through the Head. Boston Medical & Surgical Journal. 39 (20): 389–93 sourced from wikipedia.
tombert 8y ago
I find this absolutely fascinating. For a long time we thought that humans had a monopoly on abstract thought and problem solving, then we realized apes have it, then pigs, and now octopi. It's weird to think that humans might not be the only truly intelligent creatures on the planet, but it does show to me that "intelligence" isn't this simple black and white system. I have to say though, this article did kind of make me feel guilty for eating as much octopus as I have.
- gnulinux 8y ago
  I think it's useful to think about evolutionary pressures forcing species to be "smart". Brain is an incredibly expensive organ, so it better be more useful than its energy consumption. We don't even quite know why primates have larger brains; we have some theories such as primates, being arboreal, might have evolved to process snakes and spiders visually (this also explains why they have poor olfaction compared to other mammals) [1]. Afaik, and please prove me wrong, we have fewer evidence why great apes have even larger brains and humans have even even larger brains. Might be better communication, group hunting, problem solving (using tools), caring for babies better, or something else, or a combination. It's interesting to think these questions with respect to pigs, octopi, dolphins, cats, dogs etc... Every mammal comes with their own supercomputer pattern matcher that is neocortex, and it's interesting to think that earlier mammals needed more computational power to survive than other animals. [1]: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/did-snakes-help-build-primate-brain http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/did-snakes-help-build...
  - kkylin 8y ago
    What's especially interesting about octopus is that while they do communicate with each other, they aren't social in the way we are AFAIK. And, as discussed in the article, relatively short timespans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Pacific_octopus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Pacific_octopus), and parents do not raise their young the way we do.
    - labster 8y ago
dalbasal 8y ago
Octopus intelligence is essentially one of the multipliera for the drake equation for estimating the probability/ubiquity of intelligent ET life. We have (as far as we know) one instance of life "seeding," many instances of complex life evolving. Several examples of quasi-intelligent species like dogs, apes, raven and octopi. Only one example of human-level intelligence. The further they are from us/eachother in the evolutionary tree, the more likely they are to evolve independently regardless of early complex life's evolutionary choices. Octopi are way farther from us than birds are. Fun stuff!
- bjelkeman-again 8y ago
  I have been thinking for a while that if you want to practice communicating with aliens, try octopi. If you can actually have a reasonable conversation with some of them, like you can with a house trained dog, then you are making some kind of progress.
  - oneeyedpigeon 8y ago
    This is almost literally the plot of Arrival :-)
    - shostack 8y ago
      Which is particularly relevant given their similarities to an octopus, albeit a 4th dimensional version of one.
  - mrfusion 8y ago
    I’d be happy with dolphins or whales.
  - ufmace 8y ago
    That makes me wonder - do they have what we would consider reasonable conversations with each other?
    - kevinmchugh 8y ago
wjnc 8y ago
Awesome, somewhat speculative and philosophical science book on this topic: Other Minds by Peter Godfrey Wiki - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Minds:_The_Octopus,_the_Sea,_and_the_Deep_Origins_of_Consciousness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Minds:_The_Octopus,_th... Review - https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/15/other-minds-peter-godfrey-smith-review-octopus-philip-hoare https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/15/other-minds-pe...
- ellius 8y ago
  Second. The end trails off a bit IMHO but it's an otherwise exceptional book.
Silfen 8y ago
In a stunning coincidence, this is from today's Washington Post: 'This is what happens to a shy octopus on ecstasy' https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/09/20/this-is-what-happens-shy-octopus-ecstasy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/09/20/this-is-wh...
nikofeyn 8y ago
i recommend the book squid empire: the rise and fall of the cephalopods. https://www.amazon.com/Squid-Empire-Rise-Fall-Cephalopods-ebook/dp/B0716YD4TL https://www.amazon.com/Squid-Empire-Rise-Fall-Cephalopods-eb...
sheperdsonbrown 8y ago
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nemzqz/researchers-gave-octopuses-mdma-in-the-name-of-science https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nemzqz/researcher...
gammateam 8y ago
Put enough neurons in a room with enough energy and you get intelligence! Seems to be the recurring assumption. Does anyone in this field have any more insight into this, like is this just a journalistic mis-interpretation or is it really the accepted belief with X, Y and Z to back it up?
Razengan 8y ago
I love octopuses and I hope they're given a fair chance to evolve to their full potential, perhaps as the next caretakers of Earth to succeed us if not as the second intelligent species to cohabit this planet with us. It seems their biggest disadvantage is their very short lifespans? Apparently they get to live for barely 5 years! Worse, their reproductive system also seems to be rigged to make them die of starvation. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Lifespan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Lifespan

"So far, the octopus has revealed three big clues as to how it generates brain complexity: it has multiplied its set of circuit-building protocadherin genes and its network-regulating zinc fingers. It has also unleashed RNA editing to generate more complexity on the fly." Could someone elaborate on the last sentence please?

jaspwn 8y ago
RNA editing involves modifying transcripts such that one gene can encode for many separate proteins. The different proteins may only differ at few amino acids but these modifications typically occur in functional domains eg ligand binding sites, pore domains etc. This allows an increase in functional diversity without an increase in genomic complexity.
- gumby 8y ago
  I don't know why this was down voted so far it was killed so I vouched for it. It is however a bit obscure. Perhaps this could be rephrased in more common HN terms as "the octopus's genetic mechanism quite aggressively uses epigenetic mechanisms" or "calls genetic 'subroutines' in ways unfamiliar in chordates (like us). I found it weird that the article called the octopus' brain morphology "weird" given that we really only have one other model (again, that of vertebrates) to follow. Though there are more vertebrates by far, perhaps the octopus makes more sense and we are the centralised weirdos?
  - fastball 8y ago
    I don't know, I quite like the fact that I only need to protect my cranium in order to safeguard by intelligence. It would be a bummer if a lot of neural processing was happening in my arm and my arm was lopped off.
  - aesh2Xa1 8y ago
    "Weird" does not mean "bad" — just different [from what we commonly expect]. Anyway, there are also some aspects to the physiology that you might not expect, such as the esophagus running through the center of the executive brain. A bit of crab shell might pierce it, for example.
    - danans 8y ago
      > "Weird" does not mean "bad" I tend to agree, but it's interesting that depending on how much the norms of one's prevailing culture emphasize conformity, as they have in the recent past, "weird" can be interpreted as a pejorative.
  - dmd 8y ago
    What do you mean “there are more vertebrates by far”? By any measure (number of species, number of organisms alive, biomass) invertebrates VASTLY outnumber vertebrates.
    - gumby 8y ago
      Sorry, I meant "vertebrates with brains"
  - nothrabannosir 8y ago
    meta: dead comments / shadow bans can be for other reasons than down votes. some new accounts get shadow banned immediately; I assume there's some anti spam stuff working on the backend. This was @jaspwn's first comment, so that's probably what happened. It's a great use case for vouching.
- callesgg 8y ago
  This allows an increase in functional diversity without an increase in genomic complexity. is it not more like the genomic complexity is moved from one place in the DNA to another. Something has to code for the the RNA editing.
  - AstralStorm 8y ago
    It's like compression - the unpacker plus compressed data takes less space than directly writing all modified copies. It is actually higher complexity but shorter code. More vulnerable to mutations in one sense (damaging codon hits multiple genes), but less in another (shorter length means lower likelihood of damaging a codon).
daddylonglegs 8y ago
The 'normal' process is that a cell starts with it's permanent DNA in the nucleus. Part of the DNA [1] is transcribed to a string of RNA, this RNA is translated to a protein. There is an encoding where the sequence of base pairs along the DNA strand unambiguously specifies the sequence of amino acids that form the protein. The proteins then do the work in the cell (eg. the protocadherins and zinc fingers article mentions). This isn't the only way, and biologists seem to love studying the exceptions, but it is the main pattern found so far. This is the dogma the article refers to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_dogma_of_molecular_biology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_dogma_of_molecular_bio... Cephalopods edit their RNA before translation to a protein on a huge scale. Apparently 60% of the RNA sequences in a squid brain study were modified (presumably before translation to a protein) https://phys.org/news/2015-03-squid-enrich-dna-blueprint-prolific.html https://phys.org/news/2015-03-squid-enrich-dna-blueprint-pro... So most of the proteins in that squid brain are not in it's genome (although similar ones are). This is very simplified and I am not a biologist. [1] Roughly speaking each bit of DNA that does this is a gene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code

blattimwind 8y ago

> While the octopus has a large central brain in its head, it also has a unique network of smaller ‘brains’ within each of its arms. It’s just what these creatures need to coordinate the mind-boggling complexity of eight prehensile arms and hundreds of sensitive suckers, which provide the octopus with the equivalent of opposable thumbs (roboticists have been taking note). A neurological network of loosely-coupled semi-autonomous subsystems...

rusk 8y ago
Humans actually have a much more simplified system like this for coordinating fine motor movement. Bunches of neural tissue at each vertebrae and a few other strategic sites around the body can fire independently as reflexes. Also stomach has a large amount of intelligence going on. Second largest concentration after the cranium.
- thomasfedb 8y ago
  The enteric nervous system is interesting, but I'm not sure I'd call it intelligent. For one thing, you can chop big bits out of it with no adverse effects.
  - close04 8y ago
    You can mostly do the same for parts of the central nervous system also. [0][1] While you are probably right I'm not sure if the argument actually justifies the conclusion. It could be argued that the more advanced the system, the more it can recover from losing parts by implementing redundancies and adaptation mechanisms. [0] https://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tech/2014/09/how-it-possible-live-fairly-normally-half-your-brain-missing https://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tech/2014/09/how-it-possibl... [1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9akj4z/what-its-like-to-live-with-half-a-brain https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9akj4z/what-its-l...
  - srean 8y ago
    Well you can blow a freaking crowbar through your brain violently enough that it lands almost a hundred feet behind you and yet the lasting effect might not be much worse than a noticeable change in personality EDIT "I first noticed the wound upon the head before I alighted from my carriage, the pulsations of the brain being very distinct. The top of the head appeared somewhat like an inverted funnel, as if some wedge-shaped body had passed from below upward. Mr. Gage, during the time I was examining this wound, was relating the manner in which he was injured to the bystanders. I did not believe Mr. Gage's statement at that time, but thought he was deceived. Mr. Gage persisted in saying that the bar went through his head. Mr. G. got up and vomited; the effort of vomiting pressed out about half a teacupful of the brain [through the exit hole at the top of the skull], which fell upon the floor" [0] [0] Harlow, John Martyn (December 13, 1848). Passage of an Iron Rod Through the Head. Boston Medical & Surgical Journal. 39 (20): 389–93 sourced from wikipedia.

tombert 8y ago

I find this absolutely fascinating. For a long time we thought that humans had a monopoly on abstract thought and problem solving, then we realized apes have it, then pigs, and now octopi. It's weird to think that humans might not be the only truly intelligent creatures on the planet, but it does show to me that "intelligence" isn't this simple black and white system. I have to say though, this article did kind of make me feel guilty for eating as much octopus as I have.

gnulinux 8y ago
I think it's useful to think about evolutionary pressures forcing species to be "smart". Brain is an incredibly expensive organ, so it better be more useful than its energy consumption. We don't even quite know why primates have larger brains; we have some theories such as primates, being arboreal, might have evolved to process snakes and spiders visually (this also explains why they have poor olfaction compared to other mammals) [1]. Afaik, and please prove me wrong, we have fewer evidence why great apes have even larger brains and humans have even even larger brains. Might be better communication, group hunting, problem solving (using tools), caring for babies better, or something else, or a combination. It's interesting to think these questions with respect to pigs, octopi, dolphins, cats, dogs etc... Every mammal comes with their own supercomputer pattern matcher that is neocortex, and it's interesting to think that earlier mammals needed more computational power to survive than other animals. [1]: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/did-snakes-help-build-primate-brain http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/did-snakes-help-build...
- kkylin 8y ago
  What's especially interesting about octopus is that while they do communicate with each other, they aren't social in the way we are AFAIK. And, as discussed in the article, relatively short timespans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Pacific_octopus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Pacific_octopus), and parents do not raise their young the way we do.
  - labster 8y ago

dalbasal 8y ago

Octopus intelligence is essentially one of the multipliera for the drake equation for estimating the probability/ubiquity of intelligent ET life. We have (as far as we know) one instance of life "seeding," many instances of complex life evolving. Several examples of quasi-intelligent species like dogs, apes, raven and octopi. Only one example of human-level intelligence. The further they are from us/eachother in the evolutionary tree, the more likely they are to evolve independently regardless of early complex life's evolutionary choices. Octopi are way farther from us than birds are. Fun stuff!

bjelkeman-again 8y ago
I have been thinking for a while that if you want to practice communicating with aliens, try octopi. If you can actually have a reasonable conversation with some of them, like you can with a house trained dog, then you are making some kind of progress.
- oneeyedpigeon 8y ago
  This is almost literally the plot of Arrival :-)
  - shostack 8y ago
    Which is particularly relevant given their similarities to an octopus, albeit a 4th dimensional version of one.
- mrfusion 8y ago
  I’d be happy with dolphins or whales.
- ufmace 8y ago
  That makes me wonder - do they have what we would consider reasonable conversations with each other?
  - kevinmchugh 8y ago

wjnc 8y ago

Awesome, somewhat speculative and philosophical science book on this topic: Other Minds by Peter Godfrey Wiki - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Minds:_The_Octopus,_the_Sea,_and_the_Deep_Origins_of_Consciousness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Minds:_The_Octopus,_th... Review - https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/15/other-minds-peter-godfrey-smith-review-octopus-philip-hoare https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/15/other-minds-pe...

ellius 8y ago
Second. The end trails off a bit IMHO but it's an otherwise exceptional book.

Silfen 8y ago

In a stunning coincidence, this is from today's Washington Post: 'This is what happens to a shy octopus on ecstasy' https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/09/20/this-is-what-happens-shy-octopus-ecstasy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/09/20/this-is-wh...

nikofeyn 8y ago

i recommend the book squid empire: the rise and fall of the cephalopods. https://www.amazon.com/Squid-Empire-Rise-Fall-Cephalopods-ebook/dp/B0716YD4TL https://www.amazon.com/Squid-Empire-Rise-Fall-Cephalopods-eb...

sheperdsonbrown 8y ago

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nemzqz/researchers-gave-octopuses-mdma-in-the-name-of-science https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nemzqz/researcher...

gammateam 8y ago

Put enough neurons in a room with enough energy and you get intelligence! Seems to be the recurring assumption. Does anyone in this field have any more insight into this, like is this just a journalistic mis-interpretation or is it really the accepted belief with X, Y and Z to back it up?

Razengan 8y ago

I love octopuses and I hope they're given a fair chance to evolve to their full potential, perhaps as the next caretakers of Earth to succeed us if not as the second intelligent species to cohabit this planet with us. It seems their biggest disadvantage is their very short lifespans? Apparently they get to live for barely 5 years! Worse, their reproductive system also seems to be rigged to make them die of starvation. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Lifespan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Lifespan