5 ms·

Toxicity in gaming + virtual communities (particularly against women) seems to be an issue that no company has a great grasp on. I recently gave Fortnite a try

Toxicity in gaming + virtual communities (particularly against women) seems to be an issue that no company has a great grasp on. I recently gave Fortnite a try and ended up turning chat off due to relentless abuse by someone that sounded like they were pretty young. It made me a bit sad - I met some of my best friends growing up online in irc channels playing CS, WoW, etc - not sure if I would be able to do so today. Also Polygon article where Ninja talks about why he doesn't stream with female gamers (for whatever reason espn didn't link...) - https://www.polygon.com/2018/8/11/17675738/ninja-twitch-female-gamers https://www.polygon.com/2018/8/11/17675738/ninja-twitch-fema...

tbiwiti 8y ago
That article is really strange to me. On one hand, he's probably 100% right. There's no other way to avoid rumors and jokes like that. On the other hand, that's a completely unacceptable excuse to bar women from something. Can someone refuse to hire a female secretary out of respect for their wife?
- Bizarro 8y ago
  That's a dumb analogy and bordering on being disingenuous. He's not barring women from something...you know that. And the people that he plays with are not his employees. You know that too.
  - tbiwiti 8y ago
    Getting to stream with Ninja would have a large, direct effect on their income, not to mention the promotional aspect. But sure, lets instead imagine a male-only social club that directly promotes the business and career interests of it's members. That would get shut down real fast.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - hnzix 8y ago
      If a pro tennis player declined to play in mixed doubles to shield their spouse from paparazzi gossip, would you call them sexist?
      - roel_v 8y ago
        What Joe Random would call them isn't so interesting, but the legal question is (can be, I haven't had my coffee yet...)
    - sushid 8y ago
      Not sure if you read the article, but he's more than down to play with women in group settings or public events. It just happens that 1. you tend to banter and joke as you play together 2. due to his popularity, any innocent interaction is clipped and made into a scandalous clickbait for profit by people online. If anytime someone in an office had a private meeting with the blinds down with a female employee led to accusations of infidelity would you continue having said meetings with the blinds down?
      - thecatspaw 8y ago
        I get what you're trying to say, but your analogy isnt the best imho. It would be more like having the blinds open, and you both get photographed going into the room, and taking of a jacket (oh look, they go in there and undress)
    - thecatspaw 8y ago
      I(male) cannot play with ninja either
      - roel_v 8y ago
        Time to raise up against The Man who is holding you down, my friend.
  - dangeh 8y ago
    The top competitor in a supposedly open competitive field is refusing to compete with [blank] players for fear of [blank]. So what, exactly, does that look like? Here's an easier experiment: play out a scenario to the extreme: When the #2 spot is held by a female gamer, his refusal to play with female players is exactly what you claim it's not. By refusing to play she will never get the chance to compete for the "top" spot. Then sequentially every other player that is not "a her" will get a chance to "win." Last point, he's not just playing games he's building a massive brand/business (at this stage) that rationalizes the exclusion of women. The secondary and tertiary effects will be damaging for younger generations - as they will see this as the norm.
    - bschwindHN 8y ago
      > The top competitor in a supposedly open competitive field is refusing to compete with [blank] players for fear of [blank] He's not refusing to compete with women. He's refusing to do two-person co-operative streams with them to reduce the amount of rumors and garbage that terrible people on the internet will create about him. > When the #2 spot is held by a female gamer, his refusal to play with female players is exactly what you claim it's not. By refusing to play she will never get the chance to compete for the "top" spot. Then sequentially every other player that is not "a her" will get a chance to "win." None of this makes any sense, you don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever played Fortnite or watched a stream? Did you even read his own justifications for his choices? I suspect not as you created a throwaway account so you could get angry about something and spout nonsense without repercussions. To be clear, the gaming community in general is shitty to women, this is known. And it would be great if Ninja supported _everyone_ who wants to stream with him. But you can't just force another individual to have your viewpoints and do what _you_ want. You can criticize him for it all you want, that's your freedom to do so, just as he is free to choose who he plays video games with.
      - roel_v 8y ago
        Well the question is interesting when you look at the legal aspect instead of the 'I feel' aspect. If he deliberately refuses to play with some people based on a protected trait, it might be illegal. This seems like a much less clear cut case than e.g. having women and men basketball leagues. Your claim of 'freedom' doesn't (always) hold, you're not allowed (everywhere) to discriminate in all cases because of 'freedom'.
- drharby 8y ago
  Title IX now applies to my twitch stream? Jumping off the cliff there
- bschwindHN 8y ago
  > On the other hand, that's a completely unacceptable excuse to bar women from something. So what do you do? Force him to do something he doesn't want? As far as I'm aware, his choice isn't illegal and he's free to choose it and face the social repercussions. It's clear he'd rather take the heat from people complaining about that choice than to deal with the internet trolls and the rumors they start.
- lwansbrough 8y ago
  It’s not Ninja’s job to fix the immaturity of children. Nor is it reasonable to expect that he could even if he wanted to. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to tame hundreds of children in your chat? Let alone hundreds of thousands. It’s totally fair that Ninja wants to limit his family’s exposure to that toxic environment. It’s no secret that women are subjected to excessive abuse in gaming communities (especially streaming to children/young teens.) But they stream by choice and expose themselves to that by choice. Ninja can choose to not expose himself to that, and that’s not “completely unacceptable.”
  - dangeh 8y ago
    So what if he said Jewish? What then...is there a scenario where you would you stop defending him? Seems like a sad shrug to bigotry and misogyny. I'm just here for the money, fame, and influence - not my problem.
curiousgal 8y ago
As a woman living in the Third World I will never take the "issue" of women and gaming seriously.
- drb91 8y ago
  A) I’m not sure how geography plays into this. Perhaps you were making a cultural claim? B) You only need to take the issue as seriously as you take gaming. However, for the companies involved, figuring out what is preventing >50% of their potential market from engaging is a serious, valuable problem. FWIW one of the main reasons my (woman) SO plays overwatch is that the abuse controls tend to yield tangible results.
  - adnzzzzZ 8y ago
    The problem is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. For instance, I stopped playing Overwatch because the abuse controls you mention got in the way of me having a good time with the game. So while some people may come in as you try to "control" the community, others will leave. As for geography, I'm from Brazil. It's been my experience that people from 3rd world countries tend to have a thicker skin when it comes to online interactions compared to a number of people from 1st world countries, so that would explain what the poster above said.
    - eksemplar 8y ago
      Since when is the worlds 9th largest economy third world?
      - drb91 8y ago
        I always thought it aligned with cold war alliances, in which case brazil would be third world. Not a terribly meaningful phrase on the whole.... china’s doing well these days, but you’re only going to feel that if you happen to be in the middle or upper class, for example.
        8y ago
eksemplar 8y ago
You can argue that it’s sexist, but really, the platform is so hostile toward women, that I understand why you’d chose not to. It’s the easy route of course, but we’ve all stood by and watched something shitty happen a few times in our lives. I mean, have you ever watched the chat of girl/women streamers? It’s some of the most volatile stuff on the entire internet, and those people are who the boys/men also have to deal with. This may be easy and turning the blind eye, but I don’t think individual streamers can really change anything by going Rosa Parks. It’s the platforms problem, and when it remains as unmoderated as it is, I think decision to ignore parts of its repulsiveness is perfectly understandable. I wouldn’t count on Amazon to foster a healthy culture anytime soon though, and even then you could argue that what is really needed is better parenting.

tbiwiti 8y ago

That article is really strange to me. On one hand, he's probably 100% right. There's no other way to avoid rumors and jokes like that. On the other hand, that's a completely unacceptable excuse to bar women from something. Can someone refuse to hire a female secretary out of respect for their wife?

Bizarro 8y ago
That's a dumb analogy and bordering on being disingenuous. He's not barring women from something...you know that. And the people that he plays with are not his employees. You know that too.
- tbiwiti 8y ago
  Getting to stream with Ninja would have a large, direct effect on their income, not to mention the promotional aspect. But sure, lets instead imagine a male-only social club that directly promotes the business and career interests of it's members. That would get shut down real fast.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - hnzix 8y ago
    If a pro tennis player declined to play in mixed doubles to shield their spouse from paparazzi gossip, would you call them sexist?
    - roel_v 8y ago
      What Joe Random would call them isn't so interesting, but the legal question is (can be, I haven't had my coffee yet...)
  - sushid 8y ago
    Not sure if you read the article, but he's more than down to play with women in group settings or public events. It just happens that 1. you tend to banter and joke as you play together 2. due to his popularity, any innocent interaction is clipped and made into a scandalous clickbait for profit by people online. If anytime someone in an office had a private meeting with the blinds down with a female employee led to accusations of infidelity would you continue having said meetings with the blinds down?
    - thecatspaw 8y ago
      I get what you're trying to say, but your analogy isnt the best imho. It would be more like having the blinds open, and you both get photographed going into the room, and taking of a jacket (oh look, they go in there and undress)
  - thecatspaw 8y ago
    I(male) cannot play with ninja either
    - roel_v 8y ago
      Time to raise up against The Man who is holding you down, my friend.
- dangeh 8y ago
  The top competitor in a supposedly open competitive field is refusing to compete with [blank] players for fear of [blank]. So what, exactly, does that look like? Here's an easier experiment: play out a scenario to the extreme: When the #2 spot is held by a female gamer, his refusal to play with female players is exactly what you claim it's not. By refusing to play she will never get the chance to compete for the "top" spot. Then sequentially every other player that is not "a her" will get a chance to "win." Last point, he's not just playing games he's building a massive brand/business (at this stage) that rationalizes the exclusion of women. The secondary and tertiary effects will be damaging for younger generations - as they will see this as the norm.
  - bschwindHN 8y ago
    > The top competitor in a supposedly open competitive field is refusing to compete with [blank] players for fear of [blank] He's not refusing to compete with women. He's refusing to do two-person co-operative streams with them to reduce the amount of rumors and garbage that terrible people on the internet will create about him. > When the #2 spot is held by a female gamer, his refusal to play with female players is exactly what you claim it's not. By refusing to play she will never get the chance to compete for the "top" spot. Then sequentially every other player that is not "a her" will get a chance to "win." None of this makes any sense, you don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever played Fortnite or watched a stream? Did you even read his own justifications for his choices? I suspect not as you created a throwaway account so you could get angry about something and spout nonsense without repercussions. To be clear, the gaming community in general is shitty to women, this is known. And it would be great if Ninja supported _everyone_ who wants to stream with him. But you can't just force another individual to have your viewpoints and do what _you_ want. You can criticize him for it all you want, that's your freedom to do so, just as he is free to choose who he plays video games with.
    - roel_v 8y ago
      Well the question is interesting when you look at the legal aspect instead of the 'I feel' aspect. If he deliberately refuses to play with some people based on a protected trait, it might be illegal. This seems like a much less clear cut case than e.g. having women and men basketball leagues. Your claim of 'freedom' doesn't (always) hold, you're not allowed (everywhere) to discriminate in all cases because of 'freedom'.
drharby 8y ago
Title IX now applies to my twitch stream? Jumping off the cliff there
bschwindHN 8y ago
> On the other hand, that's a completely unacceptable excuse to bar women from something. So what do you do? Force him to do something he doesn't want? As far as I'm aware, his choice isn't illegal and he's free to choose it and face the social repercussions. It's clear he'd rather take the heat from people complaining about that choice than to deal with the internet trolls and the rumors they start.
lwansbrough 8y ago
It’s not Ninja’s job to fix the immaturity of children. Nor is it reasonable to expect that he could even if he wanted to. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to tame hundreds of children in your chat? Let alone hundreds of thousands. It’s totally fair that Ninja wants to limit his family’s exposure to that toxic environment. It’s no secret that women are subjected to excessive abuse in gaming communities (especially streaming to children/young teens.) But they stream by choice and expose themselves to that by choice. Ninja can choose to not expose himself to that, and that’s not “completely unacceptable.”
- dangeh 8y ago
  So what if he said Jewish? What then...is there a scenario where you would you stop defending him? Seems like a sad shrug to bigotry and misogyny. I'm just here for the money, fame, and influence - not my problem.

curiousgal 8y ago

As a woman living in the Third World I will never take the "issue" of women and gaming seriously.

drb91 8y ago
A) I’m not sure how geography plays into this. Perhaps you were making a cultural claim? B) You only need to take the issue as seriously as you take gaming. However, for the companies involved, figuring out what is preventing >50% of their potential market from engaging is a serious, valuable problem. FWIW one of the main reasons my (woman) SO plays overwatch is that the abuse controls tend to yield tangible results.
- adnzzzzZ 8y ago
  The problem is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. For instance, I stopped playing Overwatch because the abuse controls you mention got in the way of me having a good time with the game. So while some people may come in as you try to "control" the community, others will leave. As for geography, I'm from Brazil. It's been my experience that people from 3rd world countries tend to have a thicker skin when it comes to online interactions compared to a number of people from 1st world countries, so that would explain what the poster above said.
  - eksemplar 8y ago
    Since when is the worlds 9th largest economy third world?
    - drb91 8y ago
      I always thought it aligned with cold war alliances, in which case brazil would be third world. Not a terribly meaningful phrase on the whole.... china’s doing well these days, but you’re only going to feel that if you happen to be in the middle or upper class, for example.
      - 8y ago

eksemplar 8y ago

You can argue that it’s sexist, but really, the platform is so hostile toward women, that I understand why you’d chose not to. It’s the easy route of course, but we’ve all stood by and watched something shitty happen a few times in our lives. I mean, have you ever watched the chat of girl/women streamers? It’s some of the most volatile stuff on the entire internet, and those people are who the boys/men also have to deal with. This may be easy and turning the blind eye, but I don’t think individual streamers can really change anything by going Rosa Parks. It’s the platforms problem, and when it remains as unmoderated as it is, I think decision to ignore parts of its repulsiveness is perfectly understandable. I wouldn’t count on Amazon to foster a healthy culture anytime soon though, and even then you could argue that what is really needed is better parenting.