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CSS grid is a certainly a great addition to the CSS specification, especially as it enables web page layout similar to page layout software for print such as Ad

CSS grid is a certainly a great addition to the CSS specification, especially as it enables web page layout similar to page layout software for print such as Adobe InDesign. However it's a bit odd to say it "is the single most valuable addition to layout on the web in the past 20 years" given that the CSS specification was published 22 years ago. [0] For comparison, David Shea's CSS Zen Garden was launched in 2003, 15 years ago. Which means that the mainstream proof of the use case for layout being separable from markup (sans tables) is only 15 years old. I'm all about CSS grid's features and affordances, but I think CSS Zen Garden was a watershed moment and arguably more important than CSS grid alone, which was just 15 years ago. I'm honestly not trying to troll, just trying to be precise about the history of the development of CSS. Given a twenty-year timeframe, your first sentence is pretty close to claiming that CSS grid is the most valuable addition to web layout, period. However, I think developments even more recent than 20 years ago are arguably more influential to web layout than CSS grid, though CSS grid is certainly a mighty tool. [0] https://www.w3.org/Style/CSS20/ https://www.w3.org/Style/CSS20/ EDIT: Add apostrophe to mark possessive. Fix misspelling. Change "that" to "than" in 4th paragraph.

RobertRoberts 8y ago
I appreciate the critical argument balance, I was wondering if I came off inaccurately. I meant to emphasize _layout_. CSS Zen Garden changed my life with web design. But it wasn't based on a single feature, it demonstrated simply how CSS worked already. I had the same "wow, that is totally awesome" experience seeing CSS Zen Garden as I did when I made my first really solid grid layout work and truly understood what it was doing. I started with web design in a time where a guy came an interviewed where I worked and he was bragging about how he got his perfect 1 pixel border around an area (I _think_ it was an image) using tables. A full table with TDs all around with background color in them to make a border... This is the time I started in. It was a brutal time for page layouts, and dialup modems were the norm. (for you young whipper-snappers that is slower than 3g, or even 2g, on ur fancy mobiles) So tables were the end all be all of _layout_. Then years later designers started using floating elements to make multi-column layouts. This lasted the longest period of time for me. Then flexbox came along, but it was messed up and for a webdesigner, if only half your clients can see a layout, you can't use it. Then Flexbox was fixed, and I started using it. But it had odd edge cases where it just didn't work perfectly for layout, but it was better than floats, but not perfect for layout. Then grid came along. A spec _designed_ for page _layout_. It's feature set are created so you can place something exactly where you want it, and it will stay there, flowing with everything else where you put it. Nothing before this worked so well. So when I say the best thing to happen for "CSS _layout_" in the past 20 years, I really do mean exactly that. I could elaborate, but I have to get back to work. :) Cheers!
- mistersquid 8y ago
  Thank you for that fantastic clarification of layout and _layout_. Used with your emphasis, I find myself agreeing. CSS layout (small "l") really is a group of features, and what could be achieved using floats and flexbox really was an approximation for what is considered fundamental in computer layout software for print (e.g. Adobe Pagemaker). Your emphasis on CSS _Layout_ (capital "L", though I like your _ notation, too) really highlights that placing elements with strict control over placement and flow had been virtually impossible until CSS grid. So, I don't think it's too much an exaggeration to say that CSS grid makes CSS _Layout_ possible. Before CSS grid, CSS (multi-column) layout could be simulated but the control and precision required for CSS _Layout_ just wasn't there. In other words, I completely agree with you when you say CSS grid is > the best thing to happen for "CSS _layout_" in the past 20 years. That really is a perfect way of putting it. EDIT: Rewrite last paragraph so it’s not so stiff and stilted.

RobertRoberts 8y ago

I appreciate the critical argument balance, I was wondering if I came off inaccurately. I meant to emphasize _layout_. CSS Zen Garden changed my life with web design. But it wasn't based on a single feature, it demonstrated simply how CSS worked already. I had the same "wow, that is totally awesome" experience seeing CSS Zen Garden as I did when I made my first really solid grid layout work and truly understood what it was doing. I started with web design in a time where a guy came an interviewed where I worked and he was bragging about how he got his perfect 1 pixel border around an area (I _think_ it was an image) using tables. A full table with TDs all around with background color in them to make a border... This is the time I started in. It was a brutal time for page layouts, and dialup modems were the norm. (for you young whipper-snappers that is slower than 3g, or even 2g, on ur fancy mobiles) So tables were the end all be all of _layout_. Then years later designers started using floating elements to make multi-column layouts. This lasted the longest period of time for me. Then flexbox came along, but it was messed up and for a webdesigner, if only half your clients can see a layout, you can't use it. Then Flexbox was fixed, and I started using it. But it had odd edge cases where it just didn't work perfectly for layout, but it was better than floats, but not perfect for layout. Then grid came along. A spec _designed_ for page _layout_. It's feature set are created so you can place something exactly where you want it, and it will stay there, flowing with everything else where you put it. Nothing before this worked so well. So when I say the best thing to happen for "CSS _layout_" in the past 20 years, I really do mean exactly that. I could elaborate, but I have to get back to work. :) Cheers!

mistersquid 8y ago
Thank you for that fantastic clarification of layout and _layout_. Used with your emphasis, I find myself agreeing. CSS layout (small "l") really is a group of features, and what could be achieved using floats and flexbox really was an approximation for what is considered fundamental in computer layout software for print (e.g. Adobe Pagemaker). Your emphasis on CSS _Layout_ (capital "L", though I like your _ notation, too) really highlights that placing elements with strict control over placement and flow had been virtually impossible until CSS grid. So, I don't think it's too much an exaggeration to say that CSS grid makes CSS _Layout_ possible. Before CSS grid, CSS (multi-column) layout could be simulated but the control and precision required for CSS _Layout_ just wasn't there. In other words, I completely agree with you when you say CSS grid is > the best thing to happen for "CSS _layout_" in the past 20 years. That really is a perfect way of putting it. EDIT: Rewrite last paragraph so it’s not so stiff and stilted.