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> Per student Instruction spending: Arizona $4,077 vs New York $15,746 That's funny, because New York and Arizona perform about the same in the NAEP assessment

by xyzzyz 8y ago

> Per student Instruction spending: Arizona $4,077 vs New York $15,746 That's funny, because New York and Arizona perform about the same in the NAEP assessment. Clearly, New York has a lot to learn from Arizona, if it can achieve the same results with quarter of the NY's spending. Even if they cannot improve their test scores, imagine how much the situation of students in poor families would improve if the $12k saved per student was simply given back to their families. Think of how many kids could be pulled out of poverty if their parents got extra $1000 per month per kid.

Retric 8y ago
Looking at Graduation rates Arizona is well behind New York. Looking at ACT and SAT scores by state Arizona is well behind when you adjust for participation and graduation rates. New York is doing very well economically specifically because they are spending on education. Resulting in vastly fewer poor families. Now, you can argue New York is not getting value for money, but they are getting better educated kids.
- alasdair_ 8y ago
  >Looking at Graduation rates Arizona is well behind New York. I never understood the US focus on graduation rates when "graduation" can mean vastly different things depending on the school.
  - Retric 8y ago
    No single number is that meaningful on it’s own. But when a system has both lower standards and lower graduation rates that’s a clear sign of a problem. Similarly, if your measuring graduates you need to ensure your measuring similar populations and one system is not simply dumping problems into a separate non counted category.
  - dagw 8y ago
    Doesn't the US have some sort of standard curriculum which defines what you have to do in order to graduate? Like you must have passing grades in at least N subjects.
- xyzzyz 8y ago
  > Looking at Graduation rates Arizona is well behind New York. Arizona is at 79.5%, vs. 80.5% in New York. I'd hardly call it "well behind". Moreover, the poor students have higher graduation rates in Arizona than in New York. And, moreover, the graduation rates don't mean much, as shown by recent DC graduation rate scandal. > Looking at ACT and SAT scores by state Arizona is well behind when you adjust for participation and graduation rates. What's the source of this data? Does it adjust for private vs. public school? > New York is doing very well economically specifically because they are spending on education. Resulting in vastly fewer poor families. New York does very well economically because of New York City, which didn't become the global economic powerhouse because of its high education spending. New York City public schools, with a handful exceptions, are well known to be quite bad, by the way. > Now, you can argue New York is not getting value for money, but they are getting better educated kids. I see no reason to believe that New York public school children are any better educated than Arizona.
  - Retric 8y ago
    Several states have been found with their hand in the cookie jar in terms of the graduation rate. https://www.brookings.edu/research/is-the-high-school-graduation-rate-really-going-up/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/is-the-high-school-gradua... I would not trust numbers from the last two years until people have had more time to audit them.
    - xyzzyz 8y ago
      Yes, I mentioned it in my comment: > And, moreover, the graduation rates don't mean much, as shown by recent DC graduation rate scandal. Did you miss it? It is you who even brought up the graduation rates in the first place. If you believe that the numbers are not to be trusted, why did you even bring it up?
dragonwriter 8y ago
> That's funny, because New York and Arizona perform about the same in the NAEP assessment. Clearly, New York has a lot to learn from Arizona, if it can achieve the same results with quarter of the NY's spending. Given how much of school costs are labor costs, the main thing Arizona is probably doing “right” to produce those efficiencies is hiring people who live in Arizona. It's not likely that New York can really learn much from that.

by xyzzyz 8y ago

Retric 8y ago

Looking at Graduation rates Arizona is well behind New York. Looking at ACT and SAT scores by state Arizona is well behind when you adjust for participation and graduation rates. New York is doing very well economically specifically because they are spending on education. Resulting in vastly fewer poor families. Now, you can argue New York is not getting value for money, but they are getting better educated kids.

alasdair_ 8y ago
>Looking at Graduation rates Arizona is well behind New York. I never understood the US focus on graduation rates when "graduation" can mean vastly different things depending on the school.
- Retric 8y ago
  No single number is that meaningful on it’s own. But when a system has both lower standards and lower graduation rates that’s a clear sign of a problem. Similarly, if your measuring graduates you need to ensure your measuring similar populations and one system is not simply dumping problems into a separate non counted category.
- dagw 8y ago
  Doesn't the US have some sort of standard curriculum which defines what you have to do in order to graduate? Like you must have passing grades in at least N subjects.
xyzzyz 8y ago
> Looking at Graduation rates Arizona is well behind New York. Arizona is at 79.5%, vs. 80.5% in New York. I'd hardly call it "well behind". Moreover, the poor students have higher graduation rates in Arizona than in New York. And, moreover, the graduation rates don't mean much, as shown by recent DC graduation rate scandal. > Looking at ACT and SAT scores by state Arizona is well behind when you adjust for participation and graduation rates. What's the source of this data? Does it adjust for private vs. public school? > New York is doing very well economically specifically because they are spending on education. Resulting in vastly fewer poor families. New York does very well economically because of New York City, which didn't become the global economic powerhouse because of its high education spending. New York City public schools, with a handful exceptions, are well known to be quite bad, by the way. > Now, you can argue New York is not getting value for money, but they are getting better educated kids. I see no reason to believe that New York public school children are any better educated than Arizona.
- Retric 8y ago
  Several states have been found with their hand in the cookie jar in terms of the graduation rate. https://www.brookings.edu/research/is-the-high-school-graduation-rate-really-going-up/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/is-the-high-school-gradua... I would not trust numbers from the last two years until people have had more time to audit them.
  - xyzzyz 8y ago
    Yes, I mentioned it in my comment: > And, moreover, the graduation rates don't mean much, as shown by recent DC graduation rate scandal. Did you miss it? It is you who even brought up the graduation rates in the first place. If you believe that the numbers are not to be trusted, why did you even bring it up?

dragonwriter 8y ago

> That's funny, because New York and Arizona perform about the same in the NAEP assessment. Clearly, New York has a lot to learn from Arizona, if it can achieve the same results with quarter of the NY's spending. Given how much of school costs are labor costs, the main thing Arizona is probably doing “right” to produce those efficiencies is hiring people who live in Arizona. It's not likely that New York can really learn much from that.