32 ms·

Gee maybe if they taxed these people themselves we wouldn't have to buy them a new electrical grid.

Vivtek 8y ago
Gee maybe if you knew anything about Puerto Rico you'd know we're buying our own new electrical grid. Not like Washington is helping us much. I kid you not, America spent more on Halloween candy in 2017 than Puerto Rico has seen disaster relief in the year since Maria. ($9.1 billion versus roughly $6 billion total.) So thanks, 51-day-old Republican troll, but try again.
- vuln 8y ago
  Your numbers are a little off. 16 Billion in aid. How much has Puerto Rico paid in taxes? I remember when people where losing their minds in the blue states when federal aid was given to a red state. Tesla is rebuilding your infrastructure. Tesla get so many subsidizes it's not funny. Let us not forget how inept your local government is. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-puertorico-storm-aid/puerto-rico-says-to-receive-16-billion-in-federal-disaster-aid-idUSKBN1FU00V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-puertorico-storm-aid/puer... https://electrek.co/2018/06/03/tesla-energy-storage-projects-puerto-rico-elon-musk/ https://electrek.co/2018/06/03/tesla-energy-storage-projects... https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/09/13/left-huge-stockpile-bottled-water-sitting-puerto-rico-landing-strip/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/09/13/left-huge-stockpile-b...
  - cagenut 8y ago
    Hi, I downvoted your comment, but as is customary here I'll lay out why: "tesla is rebuilding your infrastructure" <electrek link> this is categorically false. tesla pr has claimed to be doing "11,000 projects" in PR, the majority of which are likely just solar+powerwall installations. even optimistically this will not add up to 10% of PRs electrical generating capacity. that is also assuming real world numbers approach tesla PR numbers, which has not exactly been the pattern (note: i say this as both a shareholder and a huge believer in the grid storage side of the biz). Tesla get so many subsidizes it's not funny. if you think thats funny, I dare you to calculate out the subsidy values of 11,000 powerall projects and compare that to almost anything else. a single mile of interstate highway is more "subsidized". a single right-of-way for the powerlines between a generating station and a city is more subsidized. if you believe in global warming, a single nat-gas generator is wildly more subsidized.
  - cycrutchfield 8y ago
    Puerto Rico does not pay federal income tax because, unlike states, they lack sovereignty. Think of them like a ward of the federal government. Asking how much they have contributed in federal taxes is like asking why your kid is not paying you rent to live in your house.
- pathseeker 8y ago
  >So thanks, 51-day-old Republican troll, but try again. Don't do this. " Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say face-to-face. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. " " Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. " " Please don't use Hacker News primarily for political or ideological battle. This destroys intellectual curiosity, so we ban accounts that do it. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- richardknop 8y ago
  Downvoted for name calling. Not cool.
hcknwscommenter 8y ago
I'm no expert on these matters, but it's the internet so I have an opinion. These territories face a catch-22: to the extent they raise taxes they become less attractive to the Super Rich (well outside investment in general). You might also end up with a race to the bottom scenario, where taxes go to zero, labor laws go to heck. You actually see all of these issues and more in practice so it is not just theoretical. It is a difficult quandary to escape from. You basically need an engine for real organic growth that doesn't rely on tax gimmicks. Finally, I think Puerto Rico itself also suffers from an artificial handicap with respect to the Jones Act.
- debacle 8y ago
  The article mentions that parts of the island haven't been reassessed for property taxes in 60 years.
  - Kalium 8y ago
    Who do they think they are, California?
    - tasty_freeze 8y ago
      Do you honestly hold that opinion, or did you think you were on reddit? Cities in California (re)assess property values just like they do everywhere else. Go buy a house there and tell me that your assessed value is about right for a house in 1958.
      - jwc1 8y ago
        Have you ever read about Prop 13? Basically it set property tax rates at 1% of a property’s sale price and capped annual increases at no more than 2%. The only time a house sees fair reassessment is when it sells...which means a lot of people end up sitting on land. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-friedersdorf-prop-13-20180604-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-friedersdorf-prop... "Perhaps most perversely, Proposition 13 has made it harder, not easier, to become a homeowner. California has one of the lowest rates of homeownership (55%) in the nation, second only to New York and nine percentage points below the national average. The pernicious incentives that led to these outcomes are obvious in hindsight. With property taxes near frozen, local governments began to see residential development as a liability and commercial development as an income stream. For 40 years, that perspective shaped which new projects cities approved. Homeowners, meanwhile, had a disincentive to move if they had a low property tax bill locked in. Finally, these relatively low property taxes made California an attractive place to undertake speculative real estate investments and leave valuable parcels of land undeveloped."
komali2 8y ago
By "we" do you mean, er, Americans? Puerto Ricos are Americans. Does it also bother you that you're "buying" power lines in Oklahoma, Transmission terminals in California, Nevada, and Arizona, and windmills in Wyoming? https://www.utilitydive.com/user_media/cache/07/43/07436e35bfaa20747b2defc44d7125e9.jpg https://www.utilitydive.com/user_media/cache/07/43/07436e35b...
- hogwild 8y ago
  By "we" I mean those of us who pay federal income tax.
  - komali2 8y ago
    Do you believe every American that benefits from US taxes pays federal income tax? Do you believe the benefits an American receives should be tied to the tax money they pay in? Do you believe Joe Blow Puerto Rican gas station attendant, who does pay income tax, cares whether it's federal or Puerto Rico? If you have an issue with tax law, why on Earth would you take it up with anybody other than the people that write the tax laws - the executive and legislative Branches?
mikeash 8y ago
“They,” as if their government wasn’t our federal government.

Gee maybe if you knew anything about Puerto Rico you'd know we're buying our own new electrical grid. Not like Washington is helping us much. I kid you not, America spent more on Halloween candy in 2017 than Puerto Rico has seen disaster relief in the year since Maria. ($9.1 billion versus roughly $6 billion total.) So thanks, 51-day-old Republican troll, but try again.

vuln 8y ago
Your numbers are a little off. 16 Billion in aid. How much has Puerto Rico paid in taxes? I remember when people where losing their minds in the blue states when federal aid was given to a red state. Tesla is rebuilding your infrastructure. Tesla get so many subsidizes it's not funny. Let us not forget how inept your local government is. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-puertorico-storm-aid/puerto-rico-says-to-receive-16-billion-in-federal-disaster-aid-idUSKBN1FU00V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-puertorico-storm-aid/puer... https://electrek.co/2018/06/03/tesla-energy-storage-projects-puerto-rico-elon-musk/ https://electrek.co/2018/06/03/tesla-energy-storage-projects... https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/09/13/left-huge-stockpile-bottled-water-sitting-puerto-rico-landing-strip/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/09/13/left-huge-stockpile-b...
- cagenut 8y ago
  Hi, I downvoted your comment, but as is customary here I'll lay out why: "tesla is rebuilding your infrastructure" <electrek link> this is categorically false. tesla pr has claimed to be doing "11,000 projects" in PR, the majority of which are likely just solar+powerwall installations. even optimistically this will not add up to 10% of PRs electrical generating capacity. that is also assuming real world numbers approach tesla PR numbers, which has not exactly been the pattern (note: i say this as both a shareholder and a huge believer in the grid storage side of the biz). Tesla get so many subsidizes it's not funny. if you think thats funny, I dare you to calculate out the subsidy values of 11,000 powerall projects and compare that to almost anything else. a single mile of interstate highway is more "subsidized". a single right-of-way for the powerlines between a generating station and a city is more subsidized. if you believe in global warming, a single nat-gas generator is wildly more subsidized.
- cycrutchfield 8y ago
  Puerto Rico does not pay federal income tax because, unlike states, they lack sovereignty. Think of them like a ward of the federal government. Asking how much they have contributed in federal taxes is like asking why your kid is not paying you rent to live in your house.
pathseeker 8y ago
>So thanks, 51-day-old Republican troll, but try again. Don't do this. " Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say face-to-face. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. " " Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. " " Please don't use Hacker News primarily for political or ideological battle. This destroys intellectual curiosity, so we ban accounts that do it. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
richardknop 8y ago
Downvoted for name calling. Not cool.

hcknwscommenter 8y ago

I'm no expert on these matters, but it's the internet so I have an opinion. These territories face a catch-22: to the extent they raise taxes they become less attractive to the Super Rich (well outside investment in general). You might also end up with a race to the bottom scenario, where taxes go to zero, labor laws go to heck. You actually see all of these issues and more in practice so it is not just theoretical. It is a difficult quandary to escape from. You basically need an engine for real organic growth that doesn't rely on tax gimmicks. Finally, I think Puerto Rico itself also suffers from an artificial handicap with respect to the Jones Act.

debacle 8y ago
The article mentions that parts of the island haven't been reassessed for property taxes in 60 years.
- Kalium 8y ago
  Who do they think they are, California?
  - tasty_freeze 8y ago
    Do you honestly hold that opinion, or did you think you were on reddit? Cities in California (re)assess property values just like they do everywhere else. Go buy a house there and tell me that your assessed value is about right for a house in 1958.
    - jwc1 8y ago
      Have you ever read about Prop 13? Basically it set property tax rates at 1% of a property’s sale price and capped annual increases at no more than 2%. The only time a house sees fair reassessment is when it sells...which means a lot of people end up sitting on land. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-friedersdorf-prop-13-20180604-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-friedersdorf-prop... "Perhaps most perversely, Proposition 13 has made it harder, not easier, to become a homeowner. California has one of the lowest rates of homeownership (55%) in the nation, second only to New York and nine percentage points below the national average. The pernicious incentives that led to these outcomes are obvious in hindsight. With property taxes near frozen, local governments began to see residential development as a liability and commercial development as an income stream. For 40 years, that perspective shaped which new projects cities approved. Homeowners, meanwhile, had a disincentive to move if they had a low property tax bill locked in. Finally, these relatively low property taxes made California an attractive place to undertake speculative real estate investments and leave valuable parcels of land undeveloped."

komali2 8y ago

By "we" do you mean, er, Americans? Puerto Ricos are Americans. Does it also bother you that you're "buying" power lines in Oklahoma, Transmission terminals in California, Nevada, and Arizona, and windmills in Wyoming? https://www.utilitydive.com/user_media/cache/07/43/07436e35bfaa20747b2defc44d7125e9.jpg https://www.utilitydive.com/user_media/cache/07/43/07436e35b...

hogwild 8y ago
By "we" I mean those of us who pay federal income tax.
- komali2 8y ago
  Do you believe every American that benefits from US taxes pays federal income tax? Do you believe the benefits an American receives should be tied to the tax money they pay in? Do you believe Joe Blow Puerto Rican gas station attendant, who does pay income tax, cares whether it's federal or Puerto Rico? If you have an issue with tax law, why on Earth would you take it up with anybody other than the people that write the tax laws - the executive and legislative Branches?

mikeash 8y ago

“They,” as if their government wasn’t our federal government.