5 ms·

I'm also skeptical a family (of let's say, four) ceases to be middle class at just 130k, even in Houston.

rayiner 8y ago
In the U.S., we have a very skewed definition of who the "middle class" is. In Germany, incomes above about $65,000 are taxed at almost the highest bracket (42%, highest is 45%). Above $130,000 is squarely in the top quantile of incomes, and folks in that bracket (between top 20% and top 1%) have increased their incomes dramatically over the last four decades: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2017/07/27/really-its-not-just-the-1-percent/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2017/07... (see the second chart).
- chrischen 8y ago
  I think it's not correct to directly compare on-paper salaries between regions. There's the simple fact that a lot of the personal benefits from a certain place can be derived from public services or benefits paid through by taxes. For example, in the US you have to pay your own health insurance, but in many other places it may be covered by taxes. Therefore your US on-paper salary it may be higher due to this fact because you would have to pay for health insurance.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    But those other places pay for those things by heavily taxing the folks that would be considered "middle class" here. In Germany, folks making $65,000 or so pay 7.3% of their income (with another 7.3% being paid by their employer) for health insurance, on top of their taxes.
    - harimau777 8y ago
      What sort of lifestyle do people making $65000 have? In the US if you taxed $65,000 at 42% there would be almost no cities where you could live comfortably and securely. As a conservative estimate for a small city I would say: mortgage: $6,000 car payment: $2,400 gas: $1,560 food: $1,560 retirement: $10,000 That leaves about $11,500 for clothing, entertainment, emergency savings, vacation, education, etc.
      - rayiner 8y ago
        Their tax system is progressive too, so just the money above $65,000 is taxed at 42%.
      - filmgirlcw 8y ago
        In this scenario, you're way overestimating with $10k for retirement. Put that figure at $5k or maybe even $3k. Long-term, is that ideal? Not really -- but as you say, you need to budget for clothing, entertainment, emergencies, vet bills, etc. Regardless, people and families do it all the time and do it on less.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Most Americans making $130K (or even $65K) are not paying for health insurance -- at least not fully. Their employer is paying at least a large share of it. You could argue that it is money that they could otherwise be paid as salary, but then they would either have to pay full cost for private insurance or be taxed more to pay for public health care. What they are paying for that the average middle-class German may not be (at least not as much) is savings for educating their children and for their own retirement.
- harryh 8y ago
  Because of they way your comment is worded, it sounds like your 2nd graph is still referring to German incomes where it's actually referring to US incomes.
souprock 8y ago
Heh. I have a family of 13. The kids can get generic AA degrees at the local community college, because that is only $80 per credit hour and they don't need dorms or dining plans. Scholarships do not exist for normal kids.
- angersock 8y ago
  Why'd you have so many kids? No cable? :P
  - amreact 8y ago
    You may not have intended to come across this way, but I have heard comments similar to yours made to my parents (I have quite a few siblings) and they are offensive. Think about what it: you're asking about someone's love life. It is no business of yours. So if you're going to ask a question like that, please be respectful. For example, say "If you don't mind my asking, why did you have so many kids?"
  - souprock 8y ago
    I'm not really sure. Many reasons seem to contribute to it. My wife is hard-core Catholic. Her uncle fell apart mentally after losing his only daughter, so having extras is sort of a backup plan. Kids can be fun. Having kids is pretty much the meaning of life.
    - angersock 8y ago
      Ha, awesome! Kids are super neat--it's just interesting seeing if that was from marrying into additional kids (have seen this with second and third marriage couples) or if they come from the marriage directly.
- w0m 8y ago
  > Scholarships do not exist for normal kids Honestly, this sounds harsh but in the US, if the scholarships don't exist (and are needed) then maybe those kids shouldn't go to (that? or any?) college. There is a perception that everyone needs to go to college that we clearly have to quash. There is nothing dishonorable or lowly about being a tradesma, the 'need to go to college' stigma needs to die.

In the U.S., we have a very skewed definition of who the "middle class" is. In Germany, incomes above about $65,000 are taxed at almost the highest bracket (42%, highest is 45%). Above $130,000 is squarely in the top quantile of incomes, and folks in that bracket (between top 20% and top 1%) have increased their incomes dramatically over the last four decades: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2017/07/27/really-its-not-just-the-1-percent/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2017/07... (see the second chart).

chrischen 8y ago
I think it's not correct to directly compare on-paper salaries between regions. There's the simple fact that a lot of the personal benefits from a certain place can be derived from public services or benefits paid through by taxes. For example, in the US you have to pay your own health insurance, but in many other places it may be covered by taxes. Therefore your US on-paper salary it may be higher due to this fact because you would have to pay for health insurance.
- rayiner 8y ago
  But those other places pay for those things by heavily taxing the folks that would be considered "middle class" here. In Germany, folks making $65,000 or so pay 7.3% of their income (with another 7.3% being paid by their employer) for health insurance, on top of their taxes.
  - harimau777 8y ago
    What sort of lifestyle do people making $65000 have? In the US if you taxed $65,000 at 42% there would be almost no cities where you could live comfortably and securely. As a conservative estimate for a small city I would say: mortgage: $6,000 car payment: $2,400 gas: $1,560 food: $1,560 retirement: $10,000 That leaves about $11,500 for clothing, entertainment, emergency savings, vacation, education, etc.
    - rayiner 8y ago
      Their tax system is progressive too, so just the money above $65,000 is taxed at 42%.
    - filmgirlcw 8y ago
      In this scenario, you're way overestimating with $10k for retirement. Put that figure at $5k or maybe even $3k. Long-term, is that ideal? Not really -- but as you say, you need to budget for clothing, entertainment, emergencies, vet bills, etc. Regardless, people and families do it all the time and do it on less.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Most Americans making $130K (or even $65K) are not paying for health insurance -- at least not fully. Their employer is paying at least a large share of it. You could argue that it is money that they could otherwise be paid as salary, but then they would either have to pay full cost for private insurance or be taxed more to pay for public health care. What they are paying for that the average middle-class German may not be (at least not as much) is savings for educating their children and for their own retirement.
harryh 8y ago
Because of they way your comment is worded, it sounds like your 2nd graph is still referring to German incomes where it's actually referring to US incomes.

souprock 8y ago

Heh. I have a family of 13. The kids can get generic AA degrees at the local community college, because that is only $80 per credit hour and they don't need dorms or dining plans. Scholarships do not exist for normal kids.

angersock 8y ago
Why'd you have so many kids? No cable? :P
- amreact 8y ago
  You may not have intended to come across this way, but I have heard comments similar to yours made to my parents (I have quite a few siblings) and they are offensive. Think about what it: you're asking about someone's love life. It is no business of yours. So if you're going to ask a question like that, please be respectful. For example, say "If you don't mind my asking, why did you have so many kids?"
- souprock 8y ago
  I'm not really sure. Many reasons seem to contribute to it. My wife is hard-core Catholic. Her uncle fell apart mentally after losing his only daughter, so having extras is sort of a backup plan. Kids can be fun. Having kids is pretty much the meaning of life.
  - angersock 8y ago
    Ha, awesome! Kids are super neat--it's just interesting seeing if that was from marrying into additional kids (have seen this with second and third marriage couples) or if they come from the marriage directly.
w0m 8y ago
> Scholarships do not exist for normal kids Honestly, this sounds harsh but in the US, if the scholarships don't exist (and are needed) then maybe those kids shouldn't go to (that? or any?) college. There is a perception that everyone needs to go to college that we clearly have to quash. There is nothing dishonorable or lowly about being a tradesma, the 'need to go to college' stigma needs to die.