4 ms·

As one of these so called "white flight" people, I can't describe how much such statements frustrate me. I didn't move from the city because I'm a racist or don

As one of these so called "white flight" people, I can't describe how much such statements frustrate me. I didn't move from the city because I'm a racist or don't want to be around people of color. I don't want to be around people period. Living in the city stresses me out. The constant noise, the issues with drunk people randomly knocking on my door at 2am, the couple of times I woke up to people fighting in the parking lot, the sirens, the random music festival 3 blocks over that I didn't know about, the fact I had 2 motorcycles stolen in 5 years, my kids not having a convenient place to play outside and more led to me leaving the city. I didn't move because I'm white, I moved because I wanted peace and quiet. Most of the people I know who live around me moved away from the city for the same reason. Amazingly, non white people feel this way too...

Sharlin 8y ago
Call it "middle-class flight" if you want. The end result is the same.
- strictnein 8y ago
  It's quite a different thing to be accused of racism than it is to not be able to afford to live in the nicer areas of a metropolitan area.
  - wott 8y ago
    People fleeing city centres is often not a matter of affordability but a choice on other criteria.
- deelowe 8y ago
  I have no issue with that. I just don't like being labeled a racist.
CompelTechnic 8y ago
There are good reasons to believe that highly urban environments are bad for your mental health (in ways that I think are worse than how bad they are for your physical health). Sometimes I feel like strong advocates of increasingly-dense construction feel that the denser your lifestyle, the more prosocial your behavior. Maybe these advocates are among the most extraverted people, and they have little experience with the stress it causes others. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230535/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230535/
- Sharlin 8y ago
  And to what extent the hostility of urban environments is due to cars and car-centric planning hostile to human-scale activity? The whole point of new urbanism is creating livable, hospitable urban environments, and usually people-friendliness means car-unfriendliness. Your generic suburbs have their own problems – massively artificial, claustrophobic rows and rows of almost identical houses, with zero character and nowhere to go without a car.
amyjess 8y ago
I agree wholeheartedly with you; like you I'm a proud suburbanite who can't tolerate cities, noise, and people, and to that I'll add one thing... > Amazingly, non white people feel this way too... On this note, almost the entire Asian population of the Dallas area lives in the suburbs, and those who can afford it are starting to move to the exurbs. Only people without the means to leave are staying in the city because the city sucks.
- oftenwrong 8y ago
  This article is about a city that doesn't suck, largely because it was made car-free. Not much "noise" when cars are gone.
  - amyjess 8y ago
    People make noise. People shouting in the streets, nearby festivals, etc. I don't like people, and there's no such thing as a dense city that doesn't suck for me.
  - ummonk 8y ago
    It's a town with a population of 90k. It wouldn't suck either way.
  - deelowe 8y ago
    Almost none of the noise issues I experienced while living in the city was from automobiles.
liveoneggs 8y ago
traditional white flight (1970's style) mostly ended in the early 2000's when traffic got bad enough and baby boomers started to age out of power. It's an outdated term in most cities I think.
InitialLastName 8y ago
> Amazingly, non white people feel this way too... Part of the reason the trend is called "white flight" is that for a long time and in many places non-white people were prevented by bank, municipal, real estate office and HOA policy from purchasing houses or even getting mortgages in the suburbs. Calling it white flight isn't always an accusation of racism against the people who were fleeing, more against the people who openly prevented people of color from leaving as well.
- NPMaxwell 8y ago
  Yes. If folks are interested, here's more about that: http://books.wwnorton.com/books/The-Color-of-Law/ http://books.wwnorton.com/books/The-Color-of-Law/
- amyjess 8y ago
  That's not what "white flight" refers to. While the 1940s-1950s move to the suburbs consisted almost entirely of white people due to systematic racial discrimination preventing POC from moving, that is not "white flight". The phrase "white flight" refers to a 1970s phenomenon where white people repeatedly moved from one suburb to another (often in circular patterns) in order to avoid POC after desegregation and civil rights legislation made suburbs accessible to POC for the first time. This was exacerbated by real estate agents engaging in a race-baiting, unscrupulous practice called "block busting".
  - bogomipz 8y ago
    No, the OP is actually correct. The origin of the term "white flight" was a phenomenon that that followed the "great migration" of people from the rural south during the war and immediate post war years in the US.[1][2] >"The phrase "white flight" refers to a 1970s phenomenon ..." No, the 1970s may have seen a recirculation of the original phrase but it is commonly understood that "white flight" refers to phenomenon around the war years. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight [2] https://priceonomics.com/the-great-migration-the-african-american-exodus/ https://priceonomics.com/the-great-migration-the-african-ame...
NPMaxwell 8y ago
At least one of your challenges is addressed by the OP: "The constant noise"
astura 8y ago
Nobody (and especially not the person you are replying to) said everyone who is white and moved to the suburbs is/was participating in "white flight."
asveikau 8y ago
I think you may be neglecting the extent to which you are describing the self-reenforcing downsides of "post white flight" urbanism. Given the age demographics of HN, it's more likely than not that the city life you (or any of us) experienced was well after white flight ran its course, with consequent effects on crime and noise in cities. If you imagine a world in which the people who wanted quiet never left, the picture of urbanism looks a bit different. If you read about American life in pre-war cities, or the late 19th century, urban areas were a place where all types of people lived, including families, the elderly, and people who seek calm and quiet.

Sharlin 8y ago

Call it "middle-class flight" if you want. The end result is the same.

strictnein 8y ago
It's quite a different thing to be accused of racism than it is to not be able to afford to live in the nicer areas of a metropolitan area.
- wott 8y ago
  People fleeing city centres is often not a matter of affordability but a choice on other criteria.
deelowe 8y ago
I have no issue with that. I just don't like being labeled a racist.

CompelTechnic 8y ago

There are good reasons to believe that highly urban environments are bad for your mental health (in ways that I think are worse than how bad they are for your physical health). Sometimes I feel like strong advocates of increasingly-dense construction feel that the denser your lifestyle, the more prosocial your behavior. Maybe these advocates are among the most extraverted people, and they have little experience with the stress it causes others. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230535/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230535/

Sharlin 8y ago
And to what extent the hostility of urban environments is due to cars and car-centric planning hostile to human-scale activity? The whole point of new urbanism is creating livable, hospitable urban environments, and usually people-friendliness means car-unfriendliness. Your generic suburbs have their own problems – massively artificial, claustrophobic rows and rows of almost identical houses, with zero character and nowhere to go without a car.

amyjess 8y ago

I agree wholeheartedly with you; like you I'm a proud suburbanite who can't tolerate cities, noise, and people, and to that I'll add one thing... > Amazingly, non white people feel this way too... On this note, almost the entire Asian population of the Dallas area lives in the suburbs, and those who can afford it are starting to move to the exurbs. Only people without the means to leave are staying in the city because the city sucks.

oftenwrong 8y ago
This article is about a city that doesn't suck, largely because it was made car-free. Not much "noise" when cars are gone.
- amyjess 8y ago
  People make noise. People shouting in the streets, nearby festivals, etc. I don't like people, and there's no such thing as a dense city that doesn't suck for me.
- ummonk 8y ago
  It's a town with a population of 90k. It wouldn't suck either way.
- deelowe 8y ago
  Almost none of the noise issues I experienced while living in the city was from automobiles.

liveoneggs 8y ago

traditional white flight (1970's style) mostly ended in the early 2000's when traffic got bad enough and baby boomers started to age out of power. It's an outdated term in most cities I think.

InitialLastName 8y ago

> Amazingly, non white people feel this way too... Part of the reason the trend is called "white flight" is that for a long time and in many places non-white people were prevented by bank, municipal, real estate office and HOA policy from purchasing houses or even getting mortgages in the suburbs. Calling it white flight isn't always an accusation of racism against the people who were fleeing, more against the people who openly prevented people of color from leaving as well.

NPMaxwell 8y ago
Yes. If folks are interested, here's more about that: http://books.wwnorton.com/books/The-Color-of-Law/ http://books.wwnorton.com/books/The-Color-of-Law/
amyjess 8y ago
That's not what "white flight" refers to. While the 1940s-1950s move to the suburbs consisted almost entirely of white people due to systematic racial discrimination preventing POC from moving, that is not "white flight". The phrase "white flight" refers to a 1970s phenomenon where white people repeatedly moved from one suburb to another (often in circular patterns) in order to avoid POC after desegregation and civil rights legislation made suburbs accessible to POC for the first time. This was exacerbated by real estate agents engaging in a race-baiting, unscrupulous practice called "block busting".
- bogomipz 8y ago
  No, the OP is actually correct. The origin of the term "white flight" was a phenomenon that that followed the "great migration" of people from the rural south during the war and immediate post war years in the US.[1][2] >"The phrase "white flight" refers to a 1970s phenomenon ..." No, the 1970s may have seen a recirculation of the original phrase but it is commonly understood that "white flight" refers to phenomenon around the war years. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight [2] https://priceonomics.com/the-great-migration-the-african-american-exodus/ https://priceonomics.com/the-great-migration-the-african-ame...

NPMaxwell 8y ago

At least one of your challenges is addressed by the OP: "The constant noise"

astura 8y ago

Nobody (and especially not the person you are replying to) said everyone who is white and moved to the suburbs is/was participating in "white flight."

asveikau 8y ago

I think you may be neglecting the extent to which you are describing the self-reenforcing downsides of "post white flight" urbanism. Given the age demographics of HN, it's more likely than not that the city life you (or any of us) experienced was well after white flight ran its course, with consequent effects on crime and noise in cities. If you imagine a world in which the people who wanted quiet never left, the picture of urbanism looks a bit different. If you read about American life in pre-war cities, or the late 19th century, urban areas were a place where all types of people lived, including families, the elderly, and people who seek calm and quiet.