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I love Clojure. The JVM is a catch-22 for the language. Clojure is as successful as it is thanks to the huge JVM ecosystem. But it's true that some (a lot?) of

I love Clojure. The JVM is a catch-22 for the language. Clojure is as successful as it is thanks to the huge JVM ecosystem. But it's true that some (a lot?) of folks won't try it, due to suspicion of Oracle, hatred of Java culture, perceived bloatiness of the JVM, etc. I know a senior dev who loves Ruby and Elixir and won't consider touching anything in the Java ecosystem ever again after a terrible experience at a government consulting company. So yeah. I think the best shot I have at convincing him to try it is to point him to something like Clojerl: https://github.com/clojerl/clojerl https://github.com/clojerl/clojerl

meddlepal 8y ago
Gotta love the close mindedness of developers.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  I don't really get it. If a customer needs to have something in some tech I dislike, then that is what I use, regardless of my opinion. Whatever makes the customer happy comes first.
repolfx 8y ago
I wonder what that terrible experience was and how it could be so bad. After all I've had bad experiences with apps written in C, C++ and Python but I'd still use these tools when necessary. To write off something as huge as the JVM and its ecosystem because of one bad experience seems iffy. I think the reality is there are a lot of people for whom hatred of anything Java is a fashion statement, a strange geek form of virtue signalling. Oracle is not significantly different to Microsoft or Apple after all - they are all companies that like money and have sued Android related companies over IP rights to obtain lots more of it. If anything Oracle's moral case is a lot stronger as Java represents a much greater investment than FAT32 or rounded rectangles or the other stuff these firms demanded ridiculous sums for. Yet hackers are just A-OK with praising and promoting VS Code, macOS, Swift, etc. I don't personally mind. The more people who ignore the Java ecosystem for fashion related reasons, the more my competitors reduce their strength and relevance. If your senior dev friend is off writing code in Elixir and struggling with low performance VMs and tiny library ecosystems, I'll be outpacing them with better VMs, better tools and a huge ecosystem of open source libraries. No problem!

meddlepal 8y ago

Gotta love the close mindedness of developers.

pjmlp 8y ago
I don't really get it. If a customer needs to have something in some tech I dislike, then that is what I use, regardless of my opinion. Whatever makes the customer happy comes first.

repolfx 8y ago

I wonder what that terrible experience was and how it could be so bad. After all I've had bad experiences with apps written in C, C++ and Python but I'd still use these tools when necessary. To write off something as huge as the JVM and its ecosystem because of one bad experience seems iffy. I think the reality is there are a lot of people for whom hatred of anything Java is a fashion statement, a strange geek form of virtue signalling. Oracle is not significantly different to Microsoft or Apple after all - they are all companies that like money and have sued Android related companies over IP rights to obtain lots more of it. If anything Oracle's moral case is a lot stronger as Java represents a much greater investment than FAT32 or rounded rectangles or the other stuff these firms demanded ridiculous sums for. Yet hackers are just A-OK with praising and promoting VS Code, macOS, Swift, etc. I don't personally mind. The more people who ignore the Java ecosystem for fashion related reasons, the more my competitors reduce their strength and relevance. If your senior dev friend is off writing code in Elixir and struggling with low performance VMs and tiny library ecosystems, I'll be outpacing them with better VMs, better tools and a huge ecosystem of open source libraries. No problem!