11 ms·

Bomb squad warning over magnet fishing

52 points by gadders 8y ago

hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
While the BBC filmed him and his two uncles, it took just 10 minutes before they found a knife in the canal. That's some very British pearl-clutching.
- crtasm 8y ago
  Did you see the part where he pulled out a hand grenade?
- aftbit 8y ago
  As an American sitting on BART with a 3 inch knife in my pocket, this part made me chuckle.
  - jdavis703 8y ago
    Hopefully you don't travel through Oakland... A knife 3 inches or longer is classified as "a dangerous weapon." It's quite ridiculous considering people with the right permits can bring guns on BART, but it is the law and probably not good to go around bragging about breaking it.
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      It really doesn't matter. I carry a multi tool that would be illegal in my backpack and a set of lockpicks which are probably illegal too.
  - HarryHirsch 8y ago
    A spokeswoman for the NRA saying that one should be armed to defend against police didn't make me chuckle, it made me think: https://www.newsweek.com/nra-dana-loesch-botham-jean-dallas-cop-killed-neighbor-apartment-1116267 https://www.newsweek.com/nra-dana-loesch-botham-jean-dallas-... Attitude on the old continent towards weapons is different, as is conflict resolution, police legitimacy and expectations on government itself.
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    > As an American ... You are welcome to your perspective, of course, and many other Americans have other perspectives. It would be interesting to see the distribution of opinions and analysis of where the variations are (by country? by region? urban and rural?). But I wouldn't call the POV 'American'. > on BART Interestingly, the places in the U.S. with more per capita crime, cities, have stronger support for gun control. However, crime is historically low nationwide, which may affect the relative distribution of gun control support/opposition in ways I can't predict.
- detaro 8y ago
  How is that pearl-clutching? They aren't saying that's bad in any way, so to me it feels like you are projecting an attitude you'd expect them to have on a single sentence of the text.
  - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
    Because it's not even remotely notable and much of the article was about literal bombs. Would they write "within ten minutes they retrieved an old wrench"? Because, barring additional details, that's exactly the same in my American mind.
    - detaro 8y ago
      Maybe because they found a knive and not a wrench as the first somewhat interesting thing? It's not clear to me they intentionally highlighted the knife because it was a knife, or just because that's what they found.
      - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
        as the first somewhat interesting thing? But it's not interesting, that's the point. Obviously it is* interesting to the author, because it's a dangerous weapon, just like the explosives are dangerous weapons. That, again, is the point.
alexchamberlain 8y ago
Aside: what is the legal precedent for by-laws, such as the £25 fine for taking something you find? Is it a contract you enter into on the basis the trust owns the land either side of the canal?
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Probably just a leftover law from the days when taking something from the land without permission was considered stealing from the lord who's land it was. If the law is not a direct leftover the precedent certainly is.
- pm215 8y ago
  By-laws in the UK are delegated legislation (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byelaws_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byelaws_in_the_United_Kingdom). Parliament makes a law which grants some other body the power to make byelaws (which then come into force subject to approval by a relevant government minister). In this case the British Waterways Board used powers granted it under the British Transport Commission Act, 1954 to make canal bye-laws: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/... The BWB has subsequently been abolished with its powers (including the power to make and enforce byelaws) transferred to the Canal and Waterways Trust. Railway bye-laws operate similarly.
moftz 8y ago
Some more info on the Canal & River Trust: These waterways are accessible upon payment of a licence fee, ranging from a few pounds to over £1200, for use by boats, canoeists, paddleboarders and other craft. Walkers and cyclists can use the extensive network of 'Public Rights of Way' that run alongside the canals and rivers without payment of a fee, which were previously permissive towpaths. Do you need a license to just float down the river on an inflatable? Also, if I drop something into the water, is it now property of the trust? What a ridiculous governing body. The UK really loves licensing the shit out of everything. "Oi, you got a license for that license, mate?"
- ams6110 8y ago
  > Do you need a license to just float down the river on an inflatable? Can't speak to the UK but in the USA, maybe. In my state, if it's a "managed" lake or reservoir, or in a state park or forest, there is a watercraft license requirement. Natural lakes, streams and rivers are exempt.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >Do you need a license to just float down the river on an inflatable? Also, if I drop something into the water, is it now property of the trust? What a ridiculous governing body. The UK really loves licensing the shit out of everything. It's a leftover sentiment from the days when taking anything of any usefulness or value from the land without permission was considered stealing from whatever lord or nobleman owned that land. Licensing for everything and everything is not considered abnormal when it's the status quo going back a thousand years. Society takes a long time to change things that are deeply ingrained like that. edit: If there's an alternate explanation I'm all ears...
- pm215 8y ago
  You absolutely need some kind of licensing setup for canals, to avoid standard tragedy-of-the-commons outcomes with too many boats (particularly houseboats) on a limited amount of water. There are also safety issues -- the canal byelaws define various rules which are the waterborne equivalent of traffic regulations, to prevent collisions and other accidents. Licensing fees also fund keeping the canals maintained. I suspect that some of the regulatory environment here is the shape it is for historical reasons -- canals were originally commercial waterways with heavy traffic, not a more lightly-used pleasure/leisure environment.
dmix 8y ago
> Two men drowned while magnet fishing in Huddersfield, after being pulled into the water. I'm curious how this happened. The linked article provided no details...
- aaron695 8y ago
  Sadly it seems just a simple drowning and the death from someone incorrectly trying to save them - https://www.examiner.co.uk/news/theyve-tried-save-each-other-14834760 https://www.examiner.co.uk/news/theyve-tried-save-each-other... Given this quote “And my last words to them were: ‘Stay safe, be careful. Don’t go in the water.’ I'd guess possibly not great swimmers. This is not a normal thing to say in cultures where swimming is strong. The "magnet fishing" link is just sensationalist bullshit.
  - dmix 8y ago
    True it's possible the son was trying to grab something off the magnet line. It's not easy to pull larger items up manually onto the shore/vessel, based on the magnet fishing videos I've seen. He was probably wearing full clothes. Then the father jumped in? And they both drowned. BTW, I had to vouch for your dead comment. Not sure why it was flagged.
js2 8y ago
Perhaps they could take a trip to the US and do some magnet fishing around Tybee Island.
- Something1234 8y ago
  Why Tybee Island?
  - evan_ 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Tybee_Island_mid-air_collision#Midair_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Tybee_Island_mid-air_coll... > The crew requested permission to jettison the bomb, in order to reduce weight and prevent the bomb from exploding during an emergency landing. Permission was granted, and the bomb was jettisoned at 7,200 feet (2,200 m) while the bomber was traveling at about 200 knots (370 km/h). The crew did not see an explosion when the bomb struck the sea. > Some sources describe the bomb as a functional nuclear weapon, but others describe it as disabled. If the bomb had a plutonium nuclear core installed, it was a fully functional weapon. If the bomb had a dummy core installed, it was incapable of producing a nuclear explosion but could still produce a conventional explosion. The 12-foot (4 m) long Mark 15 bomb weighs 7,600 pounds (3,400 kg) and bears the serial number 47782. It contains 400 pounds (180 kg) of conventional high explosives and highly enriched uranium. The Air Force maintains that the bomb's nuclear capsule, used to initiate the nuclear reaction, was removed before its flight aboard B-47.
    - ams6110 8y ago
      In that case maybe you want to fish with a Geiger counter and not a magnet.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        The point of the magnet is that even if you don't find the nuke you find the hordes of AR-15s people have lost in "tragic boating accidents" over the years. If you go out fishing for bluefin it's better to come back with a cooler full of stripers than an empty cooler, metaphorically speaking.
larkeith 8y ago
> He defended what they were doing - including the cost to the taxpayer when bombs or other artillery are found and the authorities have to be called. Seriously? The article's going to try to cast a negative light on ordnance being voluntarily removed from waterways? Isn't this sort of thing one of the main points of the bomb squad in WW2-impacted countries?
- specialp 8y ago
  Their point is not to actively trigger an emergency at a given time. If a bomb is undisturbed at the bottom of a water body it is not bothering anyone and actually is providing artificial reefs for marine life. Should it be found one day and removed? Yes probably. But should it be brought to the surface by amateurs and need immediate reaction? No.
  - saudioger 8y ago
    >Should it be found one day and removed? Yes probably Let's not pretend that any government is going to take it upon themselves to sweep their country's waterways for unexploded ordinance. Come on. The hope is that it lays undisturbed long enough to be rendered inert.
    - HarryHirsch 8y ago
      Bomb detonators aren't rendered inert just by sitting there. Delay fuses consist of a thin sheet of plastic that retains a lever and is dissolved by a quantity of acetone in an ampoule that was opened upon release of the bomb. About 20 % of the ordnance dropped over Germany by the Allied Forces was equipped with delay fuses, designed to disrupt fire and emergency services after a bombing raid. There is about one explosion/year in Germany, 72 years after the end of the war, and no end in sight. Yes, the German authorities are still actively looking for unexploded ordinance and are using Allied target photography because you don't want to hit a live bomb during excavations for a new building. Remember, the detonator is mechanical and easily triggered by vibration and movement. No, you don't want 250 kg of high explosive going off, even if covered by 1.5 m of water. In the UK they are doing similar.
sixdimensional 8y ago
There is a YouTube channel of a guy in Germany who does this as well who just announced that he got shut down from magnet fishing by the German authorities also. They said he could face criminal charges if he kept doing it. I wonder if it's for the same reason. The guy was heartbroken as he really enjoyed doing it.
dmix 8y ago
I watched one video on youtube and they found a safe with a woman's passport and various harddrives, a handgun, and a sheathed knife with a swastika insignia and that's only 15min in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyYuwfU3fPs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyYuwfU3fPs
Animats 8y ago
Europe and the UK have an insane amount of ordnance left over from the two world wars. France still recovers about 900 tons a year. Some areas hit by chemical attacks still won't grow anything, a century after WWI.
LiamPa 8y ago
Seen people do this on the Thames although they are asking for trouble. We even have 1400 tonnes of explosives just waiting to explode at the entrance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery?wprov=sf... > According to a BBC news report in 1970,[12] it was determined that if the wreck of Richard Montgomery exploded, it would throw a 1,000-foot-wide (300 m) column of water and debris nearly 10,000 feet (3,000 m) into the air and generate a wave 16 feet (5 m) high. Almost every window in Sheerness (pop. circa 20,000) would be broken and buildings would be damaged by the blast. However, news reports in May 2012 (including one by BBC Kent) stated that the wave could be about 4 feet (1 m) high, which although lower than previous estimates would be enough to cause flooding in some coastal settlements.
- Bjartr 8y ago
  The Montgomery is ~2km from the shore and has a buoy marked exclusion zone that is monitored visually and by radar. I wouldn't worry about magnet fishers affecting it.
cwkoss 8y ago
I wonder if they could measure trace explosive compounds/manufacturing residues at various points in the riverbed and use a hill climbing algorithm and repeated tests to locate the remaining bombs.

52 points by gadders 8y ago

While the BBC filmed him and his two uncles, it took just 10 minutes before they found a knife in the canal. That's some very British pearl-clutching.

crtasm 8y ago
Did you see the part where he pulled out a hand grenade?
aftbit 8y ago
As an American sitting on BART with a 3 inch knife in my pocket, this part made me chuckle.
- jdavis703 8y ago
  Hopefully you don't travel through Oakland... A knife 3 inches or longer is classified as "a dangerous weapon." It's quite ridiculous considering people with the right permits can bring guns on BART, but it is the law and probably not good to go around bragging about breaking it.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    It really doesn't matter. I carry a multi tool that would be illegal in my backpack and a set of lockpicks which are probably illegal too.
- HarryHirsch 8y ago
  A spokeswoman for the NRA saying that one should be armed to defend against police didn't make me chuckle, it made me think: https://www.newsweek.com/nra-dana-loesch-botham-jean-dallas-cop-killed-neighbor-apartment-1116267 https://www.newsweek.com/nra-dana-loesch-botham-jean-dallas-... Attitude on the old continent towards weapons is different, as is conflict resolution, police legitimacy and expectations on government itself.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > As an American ... You are welcome to your perspective, of course, and many other Americans have other perspectives. It would be interesting to see the distribution of opinions and analysis of where the variations are (by country? by region? urban and rural?). But I wouldn't call the POV 'American'. > on BART Interestingly, the places in the U.S. with more per capita crime, cities, have stronger support for gun control. However, crime is historically low nationwide, which may affect the relative distribution of gun control support/opposition in ways I can't predict.
detaro 8y ago
How is that pearl-clutching? They aren't saying that's bad in any way, so to me it feels like you are projecting an attitude you'd expect them to have on a single sentence of the text.
- hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
  Because it's not even remotely notable and much of the article was about literal bombs. Would they write "within ten minutes they retrieved an old wrench"? Because, barring additional details, that's exactly the same in my American mind.
  - detaro 8y ago
    Maybe because they found a knive and not a wrench as the first somewhat interesting thing? It's not clear to me they intentionally highlighted the knife because it was a knife, or just because that's what they found.
    - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
      as the first somewhat interesting thing? But it's not interesting, that's the point. Obviously it is* interesting to the author, because it's a dangerous weapon, just like the explosives are dangerous weapons. That, again, is the point.

alexchamberlain 8y ago

Aside: what is the legal precedent for by-laws, such as the £25 fine for taking something you find? Is it a contract you enter into on the basis the trust owns the land either side of the canal?

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Probably just a leftover law from the days when taking something from the land without permission was considered stealing from the lord who's land it was. If the law is not a direct leftover the precedent certainly is.
pm215 8y ago
By-laws in the UK are delegated legislation (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byelaws_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byelaws_in_the_United_Kingdom). Parliament makes a law which grants some other body the power to make byelaws (which then come into force subject to approval by a relevant government minister). In this case the British Waterways Board used powers granted it under the British Transport Commission Act, 1954 to make canal bye-laws: http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/foi/legal/... The BWB has subsequently been abolished with its powers (including the power to make and enforce byelaws) transferred to the Canal and Waterways Trust. Railway bye-laws operate similarly.

moftz 8y ago

Some more info on the Canal & River Trust: These waterways are accessible upon payment of a licence fee, ranging from a few pounds to over £1200, for use by boats, canoeists, paddleboarders and other craft. Walkers and cyclists can use the extensive network of 'Public Rights of Way' that run alongside the canals and rivers without payment of a fee, which were previously permissive towpaths. Do you need a license to just float down the river on an inflatable? Also, if I drop something into the water, is it now property of the trust? What a ridiculous governing body. The UK really loves licensing the shit out of everything. "Oi, you got a license for that license, mate?"

ams6110 8y ago
> Do you need a license to just float down the river on an inflatable? Can't speak to the UK but in the USA, maybe. In my state, if it's a "managed" lake or reservoir, or in a state park or forest, there is a watercraft license requirement. Natural lakes, streams and rivers are exempt.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>Do you need a license to just float down the river on an inflatable? Also, if I drop something into the water, is it now property of the trust? What a ridiculous governing body. The UK really loves licensing the shit out of everything. It's a leftover sentiment from the days when taking anything of any usefulness or value from the land without permission was considered stealing from whatever lord or nobleman owned that land. Licensing for everything and everything is not considered abnormal when it's the status quo going back a thousand years. Society takes a long time to change things that are deeply ingrained like that. edit: If there's an alternate explanation I'm all ears...
pm215 8y ago
You absolutely need some kind of licensing setup for canals, to avoid standard tragedy-of-the-commons outcomes with too many boats (particularly houseboats) on a limited amount of water. There are also safety issues -- the canal byelaws define various rules which are the waterborne equivalent of traffic regulations, to prevent collisions and other accidents. Licensing fees also fund keeping the canals maintained. I suspect that some of the regulatory environment here is the shape it is for historical reasons -- canals were originally commercial waterways with heavy traffic, not a more lightly-used pleasure/leisure environment.

dmix 8y ago

> Two men drowned while magnet fishing in Huddersfield, after being pulled into the water. I'm curious how this happened. The linked article provided no details...

aaron695 8y ago
Sadly it seems just a simple drowning and the death from someone incorrectly trying to save them - https://www.examiner.co.uk/news/theyve-tried-save-each-other-14834760 https://www.examiner.co.uk/news/theyve-tried-save-each-other... Given this quote “And my last words to them were: ‘Stay safe, be careful. Don’t go in the water.’ I'd guess possibly not great swimmers. This is not a normal thing to say in cultures where swimming is strong. The "magnet fishing" link is just sensationalist bullshit.
- dmix 8y ago
  True it's possible the son was trying to grab something off the magnet line. It's not easy to pull larger items up manually onto the shore/vessel, based on the magnet fishing videos I've seen. He was probably wearing full clothes. Then the father jumped in? And they both drowned. BTW, I had to vouch for your dead comment. Not sure why it was flagged.

js2 8y ago

Perhaps they could take a trip to the US and do some magnet fishing around Tybee Island.

Something1234 8y ago
Why Tybee Island?
- evan_ 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Tybee_Island_mid-air_collision#Midair_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Tybee_Island_mid-air_coll... > The crew requested permission to jettison the bomb, in order to reduce weight and prevent the bomb from exploding during an emergency landing. Permission was granted, and the bomb was jettisoned at 7,200 feet (2,200 m) while the bomber was traveling at about 200 knots (370 km/h). The crew did not see an explosion when the bomb struck the sea. > Some sources describe the bomb as a functional nuclear weapon, but others describe it as disabled. If the bomb had a plutonium nuclear core installed, it was a fully functional weapon. If the bomb had a dummy core installed, it was incapable of producing a nuclear explosion but could still produce a conventional explosion. The 12-foot (4 m) long Mark 15 bomb weighs 7,600 pounds (3,400 kg) and bears the serial number 47782. It contains 400 pounds (180 kg) of conventional high explosives and highly enriched uranium. The Air Force maintains that the bomb's nuclear capsule, used to initiate the nuclear reaction, was removed before its flight aboard B-47.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    In that case maybe you want to fish with a Geiger counter and not a magnet.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      The point of the magnet is that even if you don't find the nuke you find the hordes of AR-15s people have lost in "tragic boating accidents" over the years. If you go out fishing for bluefin it's better to come back with a cooler full of stripers than an empty cooler, metaphorically speaking.

larkeith 8y ago

> He defended what they were doing - including the cost to the taxpayer when bombs or other artillery are found and the authorities have to be called. Seriously? The article's going to try to cast a negative light on ordnance being voluntarily removed from waterways? Isn't this sort of thing one of the main points of the bomb squad in WW2-impacted countries?

specialp 8y ago
Their point is not to actively trigger an emergency at a given time. If a bomb is undisturbed at the bottom of a water body it is not bothering anyone and actually is providing artificial reefs for marine life. Should it be found one day and removed? Yes probably. But should it be brought to the surface by amateurs and need immediate reaction? No.
- saudioger 8y ago
  >Should it be found one day and removed? Yes probably Let's not pretend that any government is going to take it upon themselves to sweep their country's waterways for unexploded ordinance. Come on. The hope is that it lays undisturbed long enough to be rendered inert.
  - HarryHirsch 8y ago
    Bomb detonators aren't rendered inert just by sitting there. Delay fuses consist of a thin sheet of plastic that retains a lever and is dissolved by a quantity of acetone in an ampoule that was opened upon release of the bomb. About 20 % of the ordnance dropped over Germany by the Allied Forces was equipped with delay fuses, designed to disrupt fire and emergency services after a bombing raid. There is about one explosion/year in Germany, 72 years after the end of the war, and no end in sight. Yes, the German authorities are still actively looking for unexploded ordinance and are using Allied target photography because you don't want to hit a live bomb during excavations for a new building. Remember, the detonator is mechanical and easily triggered by vibration and movement. No, you don't want 250 kg of high explosive going off, even if covered by 1.5 m of water. In the UK they are doing similar.

sixdimensional 8y ago

There is a YouTube channel of a guy in Germany who does this as well who just announced that he got shut down from magnet fishing by the German authorities also. They said he could face criminal charges if he kept doing it. I wonder if it's for the same reason. The guy was heartbroken as he really enjoyed doing it.

dmix 8y ago

I watched one video on youtube and they found a safe with a woman's passport and various harddrives, a handgun, and a sheathed knife with a swastika insignia and that's only 15min in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyYuwfU3fPs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyYuwfU3fPs

Animats 8y ago

Europe and the UK have an insane amount of ordnance left over from the two world wars. France still recovers about 900 tons a year. Some areas hit by chemical attacks still won't grow anything, a century after WWI.

LiamPa 8y ago

Seen people do this on the Thames although they are asking for trouble. We even have 1400 tonnes of explosives just waiting to explode at the entrance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery?wprov=sf... > According to a BBC news report in 1970,[12] it was determined that if the wreck of Richard Montgomery exploded, it would throw a 1,000-foot-wide (300 m) column of water and debris nearly 10,000 feet (3,000 m) into the air and generate a wave 16 feet (5 m) high. Almost every window in Sheerness (pop. circa 20,000) would be broken and buildings would be damaged by the blast. However, news reports in May 2012 (including one by BBC Kent) stated that the wave could be about 4 feet (1 m) high, which although lower than previous estimates would be enough to cause flooding in some coastal settlements.

Bjartr 8y ago
The Montgomery is ~2km from the shore and has a buoy marked exclusion zone that is monitored visually and by radar. I wouldn't worry about magnet fishers affecting it.

cwkoss 8y ago

I wonder if they could measure trace explosive compounds/manufacturing residues at various points in the riverbed and use a hill climbing algorithm and repeated tests to locate the remaining bombs.