4 ms·

Because fuel cells provide range equivalent to diesel (600km, says the article), while these battery-powered trains can only go 40km or so between charges.

jannes 8y ago
The grandparent said that most of the rail network in Germany is already electrified anyway. So no need for diesel or hydrogen trains. He/She states that at most a battery would be needed to cover the non-electrified parts.
- Freak_NL 8y ago
  The intercity network is fully electrified, but there are plenty of long regional stretches without overhead power. The need exists. These trains are being considered for use on similar regional stretches currently served by diesel-electric trains in the Netherlands as well.
  - woodpanel 8y ago
    And it's not only the poor and forgotten areas that aren't electrified. - The link between Hamburg and the island of Sylt isn't (one of the most profitable ones) - The ICE-link between Hamburg and Puttgarden (to Copenhagen) isn't (one of the most busiest around 110%++ capacity) - Large parts of Swabia, one of the most industrious areas of Germany are completely un-electrified apart from the ICE-link between Munich and Stuttgart. Getting from Aalen to Lake Constance or Kempten via Ulm you will see a lot of "Mittelstand"-Companies but not a single electrified track.
    - progfix 8y ago
      Also the shunting tracks at the train stations aren't electrified most of the time.
adrianN 8y ago
How much better is the energy density for fuel cells?
- candiodari 8y ago
  There's 2 measures of energy density. Per kg, and per liter (weight and volume). Hydrogen scores really well on the per kg measure, and pretty bad on the per liter one. The values are: Hydrogen 142 MJ/kg and 9.17 MJ/l. For comparison: Fuel 46.4 MJ/kg and 34.2 MJ/l, Lithium polymer batteries 1.8 MJ/kg and 4.32 MJ/l, which is why Tesla batteries are a LOT heavier than they look. So to answer your question: a hydrogen fuel tank (pressurized at 700 bar, also known as "you need a 10cm thick steel plate to contain this, and may God have mercy if you so much as dent it") is about 3x lighter but 3x bigger than an equivalent fuel tank, and 70 times lighter and half as big as an equivalent battery. In case you're wondering, hydrogen in fuel is "compressed" to about 3000 bar, but in a way that's stable, not prone to sudden temperature drops and doesn't blow up if the octane number is high enough.
  - liftbigweights 8y ago
    This is why gas/oil fuels most cars and will continue to do so unless there is a significant technological breakthrough in hydrogen fuel storage safety or battery efficiency/size. People don't realize that a tesla sedan weighs more than an average sedan. And I laugh when people say you can keep extra tesla batteries and swap them to extend range. They think it's like changing smartphone or regular car batteries. They don't realize that tesla batteries weigh 1300 lbs. Good luck with that. Once there is a real breakthrough by either the hydrogen fuel side or the battery side, society will steadily and gradually switch to one or the other and leave gas fuel behind. But who knows if/when such a breakthrough will happen. Either way, we are going to be using gas fuel for a few decades at the very least.
    - AstralStorm 8y ago
      In a train, you could just swap the battery car. Much like swapping a coal car in the past. Not convenient but not terrible either. Unlike swapping batteries in cars, the infrastructure exists already.
thisacctforreal 8y ago
Or 40km between swapping battery packs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station#Battery_swapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station#Battery_swapp...
- jillesvangurp 8y ago
  100km with the updated batteries they are planning apparently. I imagine, you could stuff quite a bit more battery in a train at the cost of passenger space.
  - aembleton 8y ago
    And you could add overhead pantographs or third rails at key stations to charge the battery whilst it is stopped, and for a mile or so after if it is deemed necessary. A battery means that you don't need to build miles of infrastructure. You can just add a small amount.
    - bobthepanda 8y ago
      Until you show up to the next station and its charging infrastructure is broken. A train traveling more than 100km in a single trip is extremely common. 1000km, the range of the current hydrogen prototypes, is much more feasible.

jannes 8y ago

The grandparent said that most of the rail network in Germany is already electrified anyway. So no need for diesel or hydrogen trains. He/She states that at most a battery would be needed to cover the non-electrified parts.

Freak_NL 8y ago
The intercity network is fully electrified, but there are plenty of long regional stretches without overhead power. The need exists. These trains are being considered for use on similar regional stretches currently served by diesel-electric trains in the Netherlands as well.
- woodpanel 8y ago
  And it's not only the poor and forgotten areas that aren't electrified. - The link between Hamburg and the island of Sylt isn't (one of the most profitable ones) - The ICE-link between Hamburg and Puttgarden (to Copenhagen) isn't (one of the most busiest around 110%++ capacity) - Large parts of Swabia, one of the most industrious areas of Germany are completely un-electrified apart from the ICE-link between Munich and Stuttgart. Getting from Aalen to Lake Constance or Kempten via Ulm you will see a lot of "Mittelstand"-Companies but not a single electrified track.
  - progfix 8y ago
    Also the shunting tracks at the train stations aren't electrified most of the time.

adrianN 8y ago

How much better is the energy density for fuel cells?

candiodari 8y ago
There's 2 measures of energy density. Per kg, and per liter (weight and volume). Hydrogen scores really well on the per kg measure, and pretty bad on the per liter one. The values are: Hydrogen 142 MJ/kg and 9.17 MJ/l. For comparison: Fuel 46.4 MJ/kg and 34.2 MJ/l, Lithium polymer batteries 1.8 MJ/kg and 4.32 MJ/l, which is why Tesla batteries are a LOT heavier than they look. So to answer your question: a hydrogen fuel tank (pressurized at 700 bar, also known as "you need a 10cm thick steel plate to contain this, and may God have mercy if you so much as dent it") is about 3x lighter but 3x bigger than an equivalent fuel tank, and 70 times lighter and half as big as an equivalent battery. In case you're wondering, hydrogen in fuel is "compressed" to about 3000 bar, but in a way that's stable, not prone to sudden temperature drops and doesn't blow up if the octane number is high enough.
- liftbigweights 8y ago
  This is why gas/oil fuels most cars and will continue to do so unless there is a significant technological breakthrough in hydrogen fuel storage safety or battery efficiency/size. People don't realize that a tesla sedan weighs more than an average sedan. And I laugh when people say you can keep extra tesla batteries and swap them to extend range. They think it's like changing smartphone or regular car batteries. They don't realize that tesla batteries weigh 1300 lbs. Good luck with that. Once there is a real breakthrough by either the hydrogen fuel side or the battery side, society will steadily and gradually switch to one or the other and leave gas fuel behind. But who knows if/when such a breakthrough will happen. Either way, we are going to be using gas fuel for a few decades at the very least.
  - AstralStorm 8y ago
    In a train, you could just swap the battery car. Much like swapping a coal car in the past. Not convenient but not terrible either. Unlike swapping batteries in cars, the infrastructure exists already.

thisacctforreal 8y ago

Or 40km between swapping battery packs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station#Battery_swapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station#Battery_swapp...

jillesvangurp 8y ago
100km with the updated batteries they are planning apparently. I imagine, you could stuff quite a bit more battery in a train at the cost of passenger space.
- aembleton 8y ago
  And you could add overhead pantographs or third rails at key stations to charge the battery whilst it is stopped, and for a mile or so after if it is deemed necessary. A battery means that you don't need to build miles of infrastructure. You can just add a small amount.
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    Until you show up to the next station and its charging infrastructure is broken. A train traveling more than 100km in a single trip is extremely common. 1000km, the range of the current hydrogen prototypes, is much more feasible.