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You can say the exact same thing about electric cars. Hydrogen is not a primary energy source, it is an energy storage and distribution tech, just like batteri

You can say the exact same thing about electric cars. Hydrogen is not a primary energy source, it is an energy storage and distribution tech, just like batteries.

mtgx 8y ago
Yes, except you need to produce about 3x more energy for the hydrogen powered car to get the same range as the battery powered ev.
- _Codemonkeyism 8y ago
  If the price of grid energy is negative, it pays to produce hyrdogen from it.
heisenbergs 8y ago
Not if the hydrogen comes from hydrocarbons, which right now is all hydrogen. In this case, it's just an inefficient proxy for fossil fuels...
- greglindahl 8y ago
  ... and for those wondering why: it's so inefficient to produce hydrogen with electricity that, even if you have to pay a carbon tax, it's currently almost always produced using natural gas. That's why it's stuck in the demonstration phase, essentially.
- exhilaration 8y ago
  hydrogen comes from hydrocarbons, which right now is all hydrogen It's not! the Scandinavians are investing in "green" hydrogen, you should look at the photos of the giant electrolysers in this PDF: http://hydrogenvalley.dk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FCB-CPH17_NELImplementing-green-hydrogen-supply-for-fuel-cell-buses-in-the-Nordic-countries.pdf http://hydrogenvalley.dk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FCB-CPH1...
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Ok, replace the energy source with a solar panel. The only thing this is doing is acting like a battery.
    - larkeith 8y ago
      Exactly! If we can improve the methods of generating hydrogen, fuel cells have the potential to act as versatile, phenomenally efficient, dirt-cheap batteries, without all the issues of limited metals and dirty production - Being a better battery is a huge deal.
      - njarboe 8y ago
        The reason that fuel cells are so expensive is because of limited metals. The best fuel cells are made with a lot of platinum. If fuel cells were cheap and did not need the use of limited metals, then they would be a huge deal. Until then, how you produce the hydrogen is a minor detail. (Maybe there have been amazing advancements in fuel cell tech since I last looked into it. Any links?)
        bobthepanda 8y ago
        Batteries don't do that great with the limited metals problem either. The bigger issue for railroads is range; current battery operated trains have a range of about 40km, whereas this hydrogen train has a range of 1000km. You could have charging stations at every station, but then you run into issues if the distance between stations is more than 40km, or if the charging equipment at a station becomes broken.
      - ricw 8y ago
        The problem is that any non-fossil fuel derived hydrogen made from solar/wind loses more than 60% during conversion. Compare that to lithium with around 10% loss that includes outputting the energy (hydrogen would lose even more). Hydrogen is a terrible battery with very little chance to catch up to current battery tech.
  - 8y ago
gonvaled 8y ago
Hydrocarbons too: longterm storage, with the sun as primary energy source. Not a moot point, since depleting them has consequences.

You can say the exact same thing about electric cars. Hydrogen is not a primary energy source, it is an energy storage and distribution tech, just like batteries.

mtgx 8y ago

Yes, except you need to produce about 3x more energy for the hydrogen powered car to get the same range as the battery powered ev.

_Codemonkeyism 8y ago
If the price of grid energy is negative, it pays to produce hyrdogen from it.

heisenbergs 8y ago

Not if the hydrogen comes from hydrocarbons, which right now is all hydrogen. In this case, it's just an inefficient proxy for fossil fuels...

greglindahl 8y ago
... and for those wondering why: it's so inefficient to produce hydrogen with electricity that, even if you have to pay a carbon tax, it's currently almost always produced using natural gas. That's why it's stuck in the demonstration phase, essentially.
exhilaration 8y ago
hydrogen comes from hydrocarbons, which right now is all hydrogen It's not! the Scandinavians are investing in "green" hydrogen, you should look at the photos of the giant electrolysers in this PDF: http://hydrogenvalley.dk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FCB-CPH17_NELImplementing-green-hydrogen-supply-for-fuel-cell-buses-in-the-Nordic-countries.pdf http://hydrogenvalley.dk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FCB-CPH1...
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Ok, replace the energy source with a solar panel. The only thing this is doing is acting like a battery.
  - larkeith 8y ago
    Exactly! If we can improve the methods of generating hydrogen, fuel cells have the potential to act as versatile, phenomenally efficient, dirt-cheap batteries, without all the issues of limited metals and dirty production - Being a better battery is a huge deal.
    - njarboe 8y ago
      The reason that fuel cells are so expensive is because of limited metals. The best fuel cells are made with a lot of platinum. If fuel cells were cheap and did not need the use of limited metals, then they would be a huge deal. Until then, how you produce the hydrogen is a minor detail. (Maybe there have been amazing advancements in fuel cell tech since I last looked into it. Any links?)
      - bobthepanda 8y ago
        Batteries don't do that great with the limited metals problem either. The bigger issue for railroads is range; current battery operated trains have a range of about 40km, whereas this hydrogen train has a range of 1000km. You could have charging stations at every station, but then you run into issues if the distance between stations is more than 40km, or if the charging equipment at a station becomes broken.
    - ricw 8y ago
      The problem is that any non-fossil fuel derived hydrogen made from solar/wind loses more than 60% during conversion. Compare that to lithium with around 10% loss that includes outputting the energy (hydrogen would lose even more). Hydrogen is a terrible battery with very little chance to catch up to current battery tech.
- 8y ago

gonvaled 8y ago

Hydrocarbons too: longterm storage, with the sun as primary energy source. Not a moot point, since depleting them has consequences.