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This is obviously great new tech, though one shouldn't see this as a solution to global warming. Until we find a cheaper scale-able way of producing hydrogen th
by heisenbergs 8y ago
This is obviously great new tech, though one shouldn't see this as a solution to global warming. Until we find a cheaper scale-able way of producing hydrogen that doesn't come from hydrocarbons, this isn't really a solution. Might as well burn the the hydrocarbons directly...
- eloff 8y agoIt's still a lot cleaner than diesel!
- southerndrift 8y agoWhy? That hydrogen most likely is created with fossil fuels, you don't avoid emissions. Actually, you will create more because the energy density of hydrogen is lower than the density of diesel, mostly due to the heavy storage tank. In other words, you need more energy per mileage to move the trains because the weight of the trains is heavier which leads to more emissions.
- markatkinson 8y agoI think a lot of people are missing the point. A higher demand for hydrogen will incentivise companies to improve the production methods for hydrogen, hopefully with a more conscious effort to keep it green, i.e. Improving electrolysis methods. Nobody is claiming that all hydrogen is greener than diesel, the point is hydrogen has the potential to be vastly greener than diesel, and the best way to explore that in a capitalist society is to increase the demand for it. A small disclaimer, I know nothing about hydrogen.
- _Codemonkeyism 8y agoI don't like these in-the-grand-scheme-of-things-everything-is-the-same. There is a difference between emissions from a power plant and emission from diesel cars in densly populated cities. Just step outside. In the grand-scheme-of-things the universe will cool out either way.
- semi-extrinsic 8y agoYou can say the exact same thing about electric cars. Hydrogen is not a primary energy source, it is an energy storage and distribution tech, just like batteries.
- mtgx 8y agoYes, except you need to produce about 3x more energy for the hydrogen powered car to get the same range as the battery powered ev.
- _Codemonkeyism 8y agoIf the price of grid energy is negative, it pays to produce hyrdogen from it.
- heisenbergs 8y agoNot if the hydrogen comes from hydrocarbons, which right now is all hydrogen. In this case, it's just an inefficient proxy for fossil fuels...
- greglindahl 8y ago... and for those wondering why: it's so inefficient to produce hydrogen with electricity that, even if you have to pay a carbon tax, it's currently almost always produced using natural gas. That's why it's stuck in the demonstration phase, essentially.
- exhilaration 8y agohydrogen comes from hydrocarbons, which right now is all hydrogen It's not! the Scandinavians are investing in "green" hydrogen, you should look at the photos of the giant electrolysers in this PDF: http://hydrogenvalley.dk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FCB-CPH17_NELImplementing-green-hydrogen-supply-for-fuel-cell-buses-in-the-Nordic-countries.pdf http://hydrogenvalley.dk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FCB-CPH1...
- 8y ago
- lamlam 8y agoCould you please expand on this? My understanding was that hydrogen was produced through electrolosys. What process does one use to go from a hydrocarbon to H2? And does that process produce CO2?
- sgift 8y agoUnfortunately, the electrolysis of water is not efficient enough to produce enough H2 on an industrial scale at the moment. Most H2 is produced by steam reforming of gas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming
- ridewinter 8y agoThe first link says that the efficiency is 80%. Seems like that’s enough to scale, especially if electricy prices go negative during peak hours of renewable energy production. So I’m still trying to understand what the roadblocks to this are.
- MisterTea 8y agoHistorically it was the most expensive approach thanks to the high cost of electricity and higher initial capital. Here is a pretty easy to skim paper on the cost breakdown from 1980: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1021/bk-1980-0116.ch001 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1021/bk-1980-0116.ch001 The approach is quite competitive technologically and the efficiency is there but the problem is electric cost. Thankfully renewables are bringing that cost down so some areas with very cheap electric could support such manufacturing.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- danmaz74 8y agoProducing hydrogen when there is excess power from renewable source could be a great addition to the mix of "how to store energy when we produce more than we need, and use it when we need it".
- ridewinter 8y agoI don’t understand why this isn’t the answer to the problem of excess renewable energy at the times we don’t need it?
- rurban 8y agoBecause of security. Hydrogen is pretty dangerous, much more dangerous than anything else.
- Havoc 8y agoIs it that much more dangerous than say LPG though?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ridewinter 8y agoIs security the reason that hydrogen vehicles haven’t taken off yet, or is it a question of infrastructure?
- lev99 8y agoJust compare hydrogen cars with electric cars and you'll see why people prefer electric. CA has 33 hydrogen refueling stations, so many people in CA could get by with one.
- rurban 8y agoWell, security is fixable. It's hydrogen after all and not a heavy gas; in case of leaks it goes up not down. leaks are still dangerous as it explodes when being mixed with oxygen. the flames are invisible, you only feel being burned but you don't see it. but the biggest problem is psychological: The Hindenburg, still