4 ms·

I really encourage you to read The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness. Hand waving away racial influences is convenient to some, but

by diob 8y ago

I really encourage you to read The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness. Hand waving away racial influences is convenient to some, but definitely not to those affected by it. If you look into the statistics, you'll see that primarily minority communities were targeted by the "tough on crime" era. And these touted "tough on crime" policies only had the effect of enslaving and crippling generations of minority communities. The crime rates are nearly similar among all races, and it's actually been shown that whites use more drugs than minorities. The thing is though, police don't patrol white communities. They also let white people off the hook. If you're not white though, the tradition is "one strike" (see Bill Clinton's damning policy). Hence, you get in trouble for something any kid might do at 16, and you get locked into a system of control and degradation for the rest of your life. Please, please, please, do not defend the dark parts of American history. Especially when they're still going on.

throwaway5839 8y ago
"The crime rates are nearly similar among all races" Do you have any stats to back that up? Everything I find says the opposite. A Channel 4 News fact check says: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-amer... "Blacks were disproportionately likely to commit homicide and to be the victims. In 2008 the offending rate for blacks was seven times higher than for whites and the victimisation rate was six times higher." You can look at the stats yourself: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf See Page 3 Table 2. This is the "Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey" where they ask victims of violent crime demographic information about the offenders. This avoids any question of bias from the arrest rates. Doing the math, black people offend at a rate 2.4x higher than whites. I disagree that whites are left off the hook: "The probability of arrest given the commission of a crime is higher for whites than it is for blacks for robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault, whereas for rape the probability of arrest is approximately equal across offender race. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Arrests_and_sentencing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_S... https://academic.oup.com/sf/article-abstract/81/4/1381/2234598?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/sf/article-abstract/81/4/1381/22345... I tried to find data about offender rate for property crime, but every discussion said that since the victims don't encounter the offenders, there is no good way to estimate offender race. I'm not defending anything in American history. I just want to set the facts straight.
- dnomad 8y ago
  You clearly don't undererstand the "facts" you're presenting or, more likely, you are being intentionally dishonest.You're comparing data from [1] which is clearly labeled 2012-2015 and using that to argue about the drug policy for the last 50 years. If you really want to understand the "facts" about America's drug policy and the last 50 years of criminal policy there is a lot of academic literature written by some of the best historians out there. You can start with [2] for example. [1] https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/680751.The_Marijuana_Conviction https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/680751.The_Marijuana_Con...
  - throwaway5839 8y ago
    I'm arguing about drug policy for the last 50 years? I disagreed with two false statements of fact: "The crime rates are nearly similar among all races" and "They also let white people off the hook". I said nothing about drug policy.
    - dnomad 8y ago
      > I disagreed with two false statements of fact: "The crime rates are nearly similar among all races" Believe it or not there is a great deal of research about just these questions. You might want to actually review such research before you confidently declare these facts as false. As it is, you've been presented with several highly acclaimed books and responded with cherry picked statistics and banal pedantry. It is reminiscent of climate change deniers who love to link to the Koch-funded study of AFP data while also carefully ignoring the last 50 years of other research. If you or anybody really want to actually understand the dark years of "Tough on Crime" that define America from 1960 to now there's a lot of serious texts out there that presents mountains of data on everything from targeting to minorities to redlining.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- dnomad 8y ago
factsaresacred 8y ago
> The crime rates are nearly similar among all races This is patently false and not all crimes are the same. The murder and assault rate, for example, is tragically - and dangerously - high for blacks. > The thing is though, police don't patrol white communities. The thing is though, police patrol crime-ridden communities, which sadly are often black communities. Or do you think there's a massive unknown murder wave in New Hampshire that would be uncovered if only the police presence there was increased? I'm sorry to be blunt but this kind of obfuscation of facts is extremely unhelpful and we'll never resolve societies problems by shifting the blame to 'the man' all the time.
- diob 8y ago
  Like I said, I encourage you to read the book. Actual crimes committed is what you need to look at, not who gets caught and charged. That's the part that's broken, and that's what you're using to justify the brokenness. I see this time and time again from people. The more you patrol an area, the more crime you'll find. All you need to do is look at the statistics. The crime rates (I don't mean arrests or charges here!) are the same or higher among whites. They simply aren't charged or harassed like minority communities are.
gascan 8y ago
You misunderstand. I'm simply objecting to the claim that "tough on crime" was a political dog whistle, aka a code word all the voters understood to actually mean "oppress minorities".
- diob 8y ago
  "Law and order", "tough on crime", they're all code words. Maybe not everyone realizes, but they're simply a method to enforce racist policies and hierarchies without getting in trouble. As long as you don't explicitly say it's about race, the Supreme Court has ruled time and again that it's okay for police to target minority communities. This is all detailed with plenty of sources in the book I mentioned. It's truly sickening.

by diob 8y ago

throwaway5839 8y ago

"The crime rates are nearly similar among all races" Do you have any stats to back that up? Everything I find says the opposite. A Channel 4 News fact check says: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-amer... "Blacks were disproportionately likely to commit homicide and to be the victims. In 2008 the offending rate for blacks was seven times higher than for whites and the victimisation rate was six times higher." You can look at the stats yourself: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf See Page 3 Table 2. This is the "Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey" where they ask victims of violent crime demographic information about the offenders. This avoids any question of bias from the arrest rates. Doing the math, black people offend at a rate 2.4x higher than whites. I disagree that whites are left off the hook: "The probability of arrest given the commission of a crime is higher for whites than it is for blacks for robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault, whereas for rape the probability of arrest is approximately equal across offender race. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Arrests_and_sentencing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_S... https://academic.oup.com/sf/article-abstract/81/4/1381/2234598?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/sf/article-abstract/81/4/1381/22345... I tried to find data about offender rate for property crime, but every discussion said that since the victims don't encounter the offenders, there is no good way to estimate offender race. I'm not defending anything in American history. I just want to set the facts straight.

dnomad 8y ago
You clearly don't undererstand the "facts" you're presenting or, more likely, you are being intentionally dishonest.You're comparing data from [1] which is clearly labeled 2012-2015 and using that to argue about the drug policy for the last 50 years. If you really want to understand the "facts" about America's drug policy and the last 50 years of criminal policy there is a lot of academic literature written by some of the best historians out there. You can start with [2] for example. [1] https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rhovo1215.pdf [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/680751.The_Marijuana_Conviction https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/680751.The_Marijuana_Con...
- throwaway5839 8y ago
  I'm arguing about drug policy for the last 50 years? I disagreed with two false statements of fact: "The crime rates are nearly similar among all races" and "They also let white people off the hook". I said nothing about drug policy.
  - dnomad 8y ago
    > I disagreed with two false statements of fact: "The crime rates are nearly similar among all races" Believe it or not there is a great deal of research about just these questions. You might want to actually review such research before you confidently declare these facts as false. As it is, you've been presented with several highly acclaimed books and responded with cherry picked statistics and banal pedantry. It is reminiscent of climate change deniers who love to link to the Koch-funded study of AFP data while also carefully ignoring the last 50 years of other research. If you or anybody really want to actually understand the dark years of "Tough on Crime" that define America from 1960 to now there's a lot of serious texts out there that presents mountains of data on everything from targeting to minorities to redlining.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
dnomad 8y ago

factsaresacred 8y ago

> The crime rates are nearly similar among all races This is patently false and not all crimes are the same. The murder and assault rate, for example, is tragically - and dangerously - high for blacks. > The thing is though, police don't patrol white communities. The thing is though, police patrol crime-ridden communities, which sadly are often black communities. Or do you think there's a massive unknown murder wave in New Hampshire that would be uncovered if only the police presence there was increased? I'm sorry to be blunt but this kind of obfuscation of facts is extremely unhelpful and we'll never resolve societies problems by shifting the blame to 'the man' all the time.

diob 8y ago
Like I said, I encourage you to read the book. Actual crimes committed is what you need to look at, not who gets caught and charged. That's the part that's broken, and that's what you're using to justify the brokenness. I see this time and time again from people. The more you patrol an area, the more crime you'll find. All you need to do is look at the statistics. The crime rates (I don't mean arrests or charges here!) are the same or higher among whites. They simply aren't charged or harassed like minority communities are.

gascan 8y ago

You misunderstand. I'm simply objecting to the claim that "tough on crime" was a political dog whistle, aka a code word all the voters understood to actually mean "oppress minorities".

diob 8y ago
"Law and order", "tough on crime", they're all code words. Maybe not everyone realizes, but they're simply a method to enforce racist policies and hierarchies without getting in trouble. As long as you don't explicitly say it's about race, the Supreme Court has ruled time and again that it's okay for police to target minority communities. This is all detailed with plenty of sources in the book I mentioned. It's truly sickening.