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Provided this position is 100% genuine (and by all accounts, there is no clear indication that it isn't), that it comes from Apple gives the pro-privacy stance

by ljm 8y ago

Provided this position is 100% genuine (and by all accounts, there is no clear indication that it isn't), that it comes from Apple gives the pro-privacy stance a hell of a lot of clout. If a company like Apple is investing in privacy then the consumer must assume that privacy has a lot more value than the government insists, no? For those who are security conscious it's a great reason to get an iPhone over an Android (or whatever variation). For those who aren't and who just like the iPhone because it's trendy and cool, they are getting privacy for free. There's a chance that this might set an expectation when choosing the next phone, as privacy pushes further into the public consciousness. I would like to think there's a greater play, though, and that is humanity. Apple doesn't solve all its problems with tech/machine learning; they don't give you up to the mathematics. This makes some of their offering flawed when you compare it against what Google offers, but at the same time that's not such a bad thing. You won't get your entire digital life wiped out of existence, without recourse, because a calculation made an executive decision. If, as a developer, your app gets removed from the App Store or doesn't pass in the first place, it's because a human looked at it while also using a specialised toolkit. You get proper customer service, physical stores and authorised resellers... They make as many poor choices as any other company but I appreciate their priorities and values.

j2bax 8y ago
I've asked this before on here and didn't get much of a response. If Apple truly believes in privacy, does this mean that they have a strict policy against using the data provided by companies that have a lower ethical stance on data collection? Is it more ethical to pay and benefit from the data for targeted advertising than it is to collect the data yourself? Edit: On re-read I thought it might be unclear what I'm asking. Does Apple use Facebook and Google data for targeted advertising?
- mattnewton 8y ago
  Your question is still unclear to me: are you asking if they advertise on platforms that collect and use data to match users with ads (Facebook and google), or if they buy data from firms to use in their own advertisements / marketing campaigns. I don’t know the answer to either question, but I assume the answer to the first is yes of course they advertise on these platforms (on google at least), and the answer to the second is, I hope No.
  - j2bax 8y ago
    I was mostly meaning the first example you provided. These platforms are so good (at least they claim to be) at matching users and ads because of their extensive data collection/sharing practices. Is it cool to say "We respect our users privacy" if they are benefiting directly from another companies less privacy respecting practices?
    - threeseed 8y ago
      They have no choice. There is no technical way for Apple to monitor what data apps are sending out without doing something like MITM every connection which is a million times worse. So they have to rely on a punishment model where they demand apps provide a privacy policy then kick them off the store if they fail to comply with it.
      - BonesJustice 8y ago
        I think he was asking whether Apple itself buys ads on platforms like Facebook. e.g., ads for Apple prodcuts. The implication being that by doing so, they would be benefiting from the aggressive data collection performed by those platforms.
- DEADBEEFC0FFEE 8y ago
  Yet Apple makes money from apps that collect data, made by developers.
  - mcphage 8y ago
    > Yet Apple makes money from apps that collect data, made by developers. If an app is free, but makes its money through data collection, then no, Apple doesn't make money off of it. If they charge for the app, and then do data collection, then yes, Apple makes money off of the initial app purchase, but not off of the data collection.
basilgohar 8y ago
In terms of a business sense, Apple's move to make privacy a core feature is almost the last differentiator they can make between themselves and other mobile device operators. Android has "won" the mobile phone war in the sense of device count (it wasn't always the case, remember). The premiere Android devices, e.g., Pixel, Galaxy, and some others all tack on hardware features generally superior to Apple's – maybe not all in one, but the BEST of each feature generally belongs to an Android device maker, whether it's the screen, camera, fingerprint reader, or otherwise. Even with Apple's degrading performance to save battery life, they lost the performance crown explicitly (showing they did not prioritize that) and battery life can be beaten by thicker phones which Apple avoids. So, all that's really left that they can compete with commercially and effectively against Google's Android hegemony is in the one thing neither Google nor their device partners can even deign to pursue – consumer privacy. Apple is, and likely always will be, a hardware company. So, they do not see consumer's private info as a source of revenue. They just need folks to keep buying their devices. They can differentiate by making privacy a feature, something a device beholden to Google or the Play marketplace can never be, which is the vast majority of Android devices out there.
- ljm 8y ago
  The incident with Android and the battery saving problem a few days back must be telling. If Google changed that setting and affected a whole host of users' phones, then they also have the infrastructure in place to know which phones were affected. No malice assumed, of course, but that means that your independence is no further than a config flag in a build process. As in, you don't have it.
- greedo 8y ago
  Android phone CPUs are so far behind Apple's A12 it's not even worth debating.
  - headsoup 8y ago
    Sounds like it is worth debating, please, provide the argument that demonstrates such a gap.
Jnr 8y ago
I had used Android Nexus devices starting from Nexus S up to 6P and finally switched to iPhone 8 this year. Android has better UX and has some nice features but there are no real privacy settings, Android apps have no proper inspection before being released on the market and too frequently some 0day RCE exploits are released publicly for Android. Privacy features were the biggest reason I switched and even though it is not as convenient to use it, I'm going to stick with it for the foreseeable future. Oh, and the hardware build quality "feel" seems much much better than any Android phone I have held as well.
- clairity 8y ago
  > "Android has better UX..." ruhr? </scooby-doo_voice> i have both an android and an ios phone, and i'm comparatively amazed at how bone-headed android UX can be. it's also a hot bed of paralysis-of-choice (in both apps and in settings/configuration). sure, ios has issues here and there, but (to me) ios is generally more intuitive (==better UX).
  - Nerdfest 8y ago
    Perhaps you have a Samsung? Some of the changes that vendors make are aggressively stupid, in the name of being different.
  - ambicapter 8y ago
    The only caveat I have on that is the iPhone's Settings. Its chaotic in there.
  - nikofeyn 8y ago
    you didn't exactly give any counterexamples. yes, android's settings menus have a lot and are relatively poorly organized, but so are ios settings. but in terms of apps, i find android much more intuitive than ios. on android, there is basically a universal back button, in position and in behavior, that always seems to just work. not so on ios, where i am constantly wondering how do i go backwards from where i'm at. the heavy gesture language on ios is very non-intuitive. for example, closing apps. on android, there is a two button press to close all apps or just a one button press plus swipe to close a single app. or there's a double-tap to return to the previous app immediately. on ios, it's a weird swipe up and right, then a ridiculously long hold, and then a one by one swipe. on lg android phones at least, there is serious multitasking. so i can have youtube playing in the top or bottom of the screen and then be browsing the web or on some other app in the other half. this is really, really useful. not to mention android can more frequently have an overlay of apps, such as video chat or youtube in a picture in picture type of situation. android's clip tray is also very useful, especially when composing e-mails that contain copied information from multiple places. on ios, i am constantly annoyed by editing the address bar. the tap, then wait, and then hit the little x is a constant annoyance because there is a mandatory wait after the first tap, and it's very finicky, as well as the little x. yes, ios is very clean, but that doesn't mean it has good ux. i am constantly befuddled by ios design choices in how to do something. and the gesture language is extremely non-intuitive. the gestures on android or far more nature and less overbearing.
fermienrico 8y ago
No one is mentioning that Apple is a hardware company first. They're not an ad company that makes hardware. Completely different approach and their stance for privacy makes sense.
- erichocean 8y ago
  [deleted]
  - fermienrico 8y ago
    Your comment is totally absurd and unrelated. We are talking about Privacy - if you're in the business of selling targeted ads (Google), you have a conflict of interest with regards to Privacy. What does this have to do with driving competitors to ground!??? Edit: Looks like you've edited with additional information. Still you're off track with my point.
- developer2 8y ago
  What is absurd is that one of the two largest smartphone ecosystems (Android/Google) is run by a company for whom their supposed "customers" are in fact also a product, with Google double-dipping by selling us off to a second set of customers (advertisers). It boggles the mind how... understanding... people are to Google's business practices; "well, they're an ad company, so it just makes sense they they'd want to put devices into people's hands that vacuum up as much personal data as humanly possible – I'll buy two please!". I roll my eyes every time someone talks about the "premium price" of Apple hardware. Apple hardware is not all that much more expensive; it's just not subsidized via tracking/profiling (loss of privacy), and subsequent advertising, the way the competition is. This has always been the case with Android/Google, and more recently even somewhat true with Microsoft (Windows 10 and its multiple shenanigans).
  - tpaschalis 8y ago
    > I roll my eyes every time someone talks about the "premium price" of Apple hardware. Apple hardware is not all that much more expensive; it's just not subsidized via tracking/profiling (loss of privacy), and subsequent advertising, the way the competition is. I understand your sentiment about the price being subsidized with vendor lock in, advertisement and data gathering. But the point on the price might be true for the US only. In most of Europe, as well as in my country, (let alone poorer parts of the world), a used, cheap iPhone can cost as much as two months of the rent money for a small apartment; a new iPhone/Apple device is out of the question. So the dilemma for most people either no smartphone or an Android smartphone.

by ljm 8y ago

j2bax 8y ago

I've asked this before on here and didn't get much of a response. If Apple truly believes in privacy, does this mean that they have a strict policy against using the data provided by companies that have a lower ethical stance on data collection? Is it more ethical to pay and benefit from the data for targeted advertising than it is to collect the data yourself? Edit: On re-read I thought it might be unclear what I'm asking. Does Apple use Facebook and Google data for targeted advertising?

mattnewton 8y ago
Your question is still unclear to me: are you asking if they advertise on platforms that collect and use data to match users with ads (Facebook and google), or if they buy data from firms to use in their own advertisements / marketing campaigns. I don’t know the answer to either question, but I assume the answer to the first is yes of course they advertise on these platforms (on google at least), and the answer to the second is, I hope No.
- j2bax 8y ago
  I was mostly meaning the first example you provided. These platforms are so good (at least they claim to be) at matching users and ads because of their extensive data collection/sharing practices. Is it cool to say "We respect our users privacy" if they are benefiting directly from another companies less privacy respecting practices?
  - threeseed 8y ago
    They have no choice. There is no technical way for Apple to monitor what data apps are sending out without doing something like MITM every connection which is a million times worse. So they have to rely on a punishment model where they demand apps provide a privacy policy then kick them off the store if they fail to comply with it.
    - BonesJustice 8y ago
      I think he was asking whether Apple itself buys ads on platforms like Facebook. e.g., ads for Apple prodcuts. The implication being that by doing so, they would be benefiting from the aggressive data collection performed by those platforms.
DEADBEEFC0FFEE 8y ago
Yet Apple makes money from apps that collect data, made by developers.
- mcphage 8y ago
  > Yet Apple makes money from apps that collect data, made by developers. If an app is free, but makes its money through data collection, then no, Apple doesn't make money off of it. If they charge for the app, and then do data collection, then yes, Apple makes money off of the initial app purchase, but not off of the data collection.

basilgohar 8y ago

In terms of a business sense, Apple's move to make privacy a core feature is almost the last differentiator they can make between themselves and other mobile device operators. Android has "won" the mobile phone war in the sense of device count (it wasn't always the case, remember). The premiere Android devices, e.g., Pixel, Galaxy, and some others all tack on hardware features generally superior to Apple's – maybe not all in one, but the BEST of each feature generally belongs to an Android device maker, whether it's the screen, camera, fingerprint reader, or otherwise. Even with Apple's degrading performance to save battery life, they lost the performance crown explicitly (showing they did not prioritize that) and battery life can be beaten by thicker phones which Apple avoids. So, all that's really left that they can compete with commercially and effectively against Google's Android hegemony is in the one thing neither Google nor their device partners can even deign to pursue – consumer privacy. Apple is, and likely always will be, a hardware company. So, they do not see consumer's private info as a source of revenue. They just need folks to keep buying their devices. They can differentiate by making privacy a feature, something a device beholden to Google or the Play marketplace can never be, which is the vast majority of Android devices out there.

ljm 8y ago
The incident with Android and the battery saving problem a few days back must be telling. If Google changed that setting and affected a whole host of users' phones, then they also have the infrastructure in place to know which phones were affected. No malice assumed, of course, but that means that your independence is no further than a config flag in a build process. As in, you don't have it.
greedo 8y ago
Android phone CPUs are so far behind Apple's A12 it's not even worth debating.
- headsoup 8y ago
  Sounds like it is worth debating, please, provide the argument that demonstrates such a gap.

Jnr 8y ago

I had used Android Nexus devices starting from Nexus S up to 6P and finally switched to iPhone 8 this year. Android has better UX and has some nice features but there are no real privacy settings, Android apps have no proper inspection before being released on the market and too frequently some 0day RCE exploits are released publicly for Android. Privacy features were the biggest reason I switched and even though it is not as convenient to use it, I'm going to stick with it for the foreseeable future. Oh, and the hardware build quality "feel" seems much much better than any Android phone I have held as well.

clairity 8y ago
> "Android has better UX..." ruhr? </scooby-doo_voice> i have both an android and an ios phone, and i'm comparatively amazed at how bone-headed android UX can be. it's also a hot bed of paralysis-of-choice (in both apps and in settings/configuration). sure, ios has issues here and there, but (to me) ios is generally more intuitive (==better UX).
- Nerdfest 8y ago
  Perhaps you have a Samsung? Some of the changes that vendors make are aggressively stupid, in the name of being different.
- ambicapter 8y ago
  The only caveat I have on that is the iPhone's Settings. Its chaotic in there.
- nikofeyn 8y ago
  you didn't exactly give any counterexamples. yes, android's settings menus have a lot and are relatively poorly organized, but so are ios settings. but in terms of apps, i find android much more intuitive than ios. on android, there is basically a universal back button, in position and in behavior, that always seems to just work. not so on ios, where i am constantly wondering how do i go backwards from where i'm at. the heavy gesture language on ios is very non-intuitive. for example, closing apps. on android, there is a two button press to close all apps or just a one button press plus swipe to close a single app. or there's a double-tap to return to the previous app immediately. on ios, it's a weird swipe up and right, then a ridiculously long hold, and then a one by one swipe. on lg android phones at least, there is serious multitasking. so i can have youtube playing in the top or bottom of the screen and then be browsing the web or on some other app in the other half. this is really, really useful. not to mention android can more frequently have an overlay of apps, such as video chat or youtube in a picture in picture type of situation. android's clip tray is also very useful, especially when composing e-mails that contain copied information from multiple places. on ios, i am constantly annoyed by editing the address bar. the tap, then wait, and then hit the little x is a constant annoyance because there is a mandatory wait after the first tap, and it's very finicky, as well as the little x. yes, ios is very clean, but that doesn't mean it has good ux. i am constantly befuddled by ios design choices in how to do something. and the gesture language is extremely non-intuitive. the gestures on android or far more nature and less overbearing.

fermienrico 8y ago

No one is mentioning that Apple is a hardware company first. They're not an ad company that makes hardware. Completely different approach and their stance for privacy makes sense.

erichocean 8y ago
[deleted]
- fermienrico 8y ago
  Your comment is totally absurd and unrelated. We are talking about Privacy - if you're in the business of selling targeted ads (Google), you have a conflict of interest with regards to Privacy. What does this have to do with driving competitors to ground!??? Edit: Looks like you've edited with additional information. Still you're off track with my point.
developer2 8y ago
What is absurd is that one of the two largest smartphone ecosystems (Android/Google) is run by a company for whom their supposed "customers" are in fact also a product, with Google double-dipping by selling us off to a second set of customers (advertisers). It boggles the mind how... understanding... people are to Google's business practices; "well, they're an ad company, so it just makes sense they they'd want to put devices into people's hands that vacuum up as much personal data as humanly possible – I'll buy two please!". I roll my eyes every time someone talks about the "premium price" of Apple hardware. Apple hardware is not all that much more expensive; it's just not subsidized via tracking/profiling (loss of privacy), and subsequent advertising, the way the competition is. This has always been the case with Android/Google, and more recently even somewhat true with Microsoft (Windows 10 and its multiple shenanigans).
- tpaschalis 8y ago
  > I roll my eyes every time someone talks about the "premium price" of Apple hardware. Apple hardware is not all that much more expensive; it's just not subsidized via tracking/profiling (loss of privacy), and subsequent advertising, the way the competition is. I understand your sentiment about the price being subsidized with vendor lock in, advertisement and data gathering. But the point on the price might be true for the US only. In most of Europe, as well as in my country, (let alone poorer parts of the world), a used, cheap iPhone can cost as much as two months of the rent money for a small apartment; a new iPhone/Apple device is out of the question. So the dilemma for most people either no smartphone or an Android smartphone.