8 ms·

I'm not in favor of permanently being on Summer time, which is one of the options. Humans are already too disconnected from the physical world, I'd hate to see

I'm not in favor of permanently being on Summer time, which is one of the options. Humans are already too disconnected from the physical world, I'd hate to see us completely lose the association of "Noon" with the Sun being at it's highest point in the sky. Yeah, I know. Hopeless romantic... But I'd love to see the end of Daylight Saving Time. I hate the biannual screwing of my body clock.

spullara 8y ago
Summer time only for me. I have no interest in it getting dark near 5pm. (SF Bay Area)
- lr 8y ago
  I am in NYC, which is pretty far east in the timezone (although not as east as others), and I still vote for DST being the permanent time.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Boston is quite a bit further east (and north). Personally, I'd go for year-round DST (or Atlantic Time which would effectively be the same thing). You'll never resolve individual preferences though. Some won't want sun at 4AM in the summer; others won't want dark at 4PM in the winter [ADDED: or kids waiting around for school buses in pitch dark]. Get far enough north (and much of Europe is much further north) and there isn't enough light to go around at some times of the year. I used to care more. Now my schedule is mostly flexible enough that I can largely choose when in the day I want it to be light.
    - bostonpete 8y ago
      Permanent DST improves both of your examples (sun rising too early in the summer and setting too early in the winter). The argument against permanent DST in Boston is how dark it would be when kids go to school. Of course the counterarguments are "Alaskans do it" and "you can just adjust school schedules (and the work schedules of all the affected parents...)". In theory, those are both options, but are less desirable for many than the status quo
- 3chelon 8y ago
  Or in the UK where it's dark by 4pm in mid-winter. Give me back my daylight
  - nicky0 8y ago
    But if it shifts forward it's be dark in the morning till 9.30am.
bhaak 8y ago
I hate to break this to you but at least in continental Europe, you don't find a big area where the sun is at its highest point in the sky. The CET timezone has that property for the town of Goerlitz or, to a slightly less extend, Vienna. That means almost all of Germany, France, and Spain doesn't already have that property.
- zokier 8y ago
  Looking at this map[1], it doesn't seem that bad. I mean sure, France, Spain and Benelux could move to +0, but other than that the time zones seem to match reasonably well to solar time all things considered. For example both Berlin and Rome seem to be pretty well matched. Notably it would seem like using summer time would make everything worse, shifting the time zones in wrong direction. [1] http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV2.png http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV...
  - pmontra 8y ago
    Summer time is a better match for Italian habits. Business hours are 9 to 18, lunch break at 13. The South of the country has meals at least an hour later than the North. I hope we move to UTC+2.
codethief 8y ago
> Humans are already too disconnected from the physical world, I'd hate to see us completely lose the association of "Noon" with the Sun being at it's highest point in the sky. This has never really been the case to begin as a wide (geographical) range of countries is part of the same time zone, meaning for instance that noon in Spain is not really noon.
Hunisgung 8y ago
In France, the norm is to start work three/four hours before noon and finish six/seven hours after noon (and of course do stuff after work but not before). If we stay on winter time, I can say goodbye to sunlight for most of the year.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  >In France, the norm is to start work three/four hours before noon and finish six/seven hours after noon You work 9-11 hour days? Doesn't france have a legally defined 35 hour work week and other, fairly stringent laws re max hours / day?
  - user5994461 8y ago
    It's 35 hours excluding a 2 hours lunch break, for example 9-12 14-18.
  - Hunisgung 8y ago
    The 35 hour work week is mostly implemented by getting additional vacation (on top of the base 25 days off) and (at least for engineers) some contractually agreed overtime (that is already included in the yearly salary you negociate). For example, I have a legal 35 hour per week contract with 38h30 of work per week, the difference being compensated by about 15 additional days off and the rest paid in overtime. Where I work (large private company) working from 9 to 18/19 with a good hour of lunch break is quite standard (with administrative people tending to work more form 8 to 17).
  - tonfa 8y ago
    Most qualified jobs have a 39h/week contract (with extra vacation day to compensate), and among those people many seem to do much more with no extra pay (without realizing they actually get a pretty shitty pay for the amount of time they stay at work).
woodson 8y ago
Ponferrada, Spain (42°33′N) has the same time as Skopje, Republic of Macedonia (42°0′N) (both are on CEST); however, in Ponferrada the sun passes through the meridian at 2:20pm today while in Skopje it does at 12:28pm. https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/spain/ponferrada https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/spain/ponferrada https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/republic-of-macedonia/skopje https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/republic-of-macedonia/... With this new regulation, Spain can adopt a time zone that makes more sense for them while not having to change clocks twice a year.
- briandear 8y ago
  They could have adopted the same time anyway. This regulation has no bearing on Spain choosing to be in CET when they should be on British time.
LukaD 8y ago
I think this is a non issue. I’m just happy that I will be able enjoy more time after work while it’s not dark yet.
- briandear 8y ago
  I wonder why people couldn’t just start work earlier. The day is the same length.
  - rootbear 8y ago
    Yes, exactly! If you want more daylight time after work, just start work earlier! I know not everyone has that luxury. But permanent Daylight Saving Time also makes it darker in the mornings, when kids are going off to school and that isn't necessarily desirable. I think it makes sense to be more flexible about when we schedule things and not further distort the historic understanding of the relationship of the clock to the sky. And yes, I understand that there are many places where this relationship is tenuous, at best.
    - watwut 8y ago
      I would prefer dark while kids go to school in exchange for light after school so they are actually out side playing while there is sun.
      - rootbear 8y ago
        Not an unreasonable attitude, I'll grant.
  - pmontra 8y ago
    It's not only work. It's schools, theaters, sport events, tv, dinner time. We must move everything and all the ingrained habits. It's not logic but moving the clock is easier.
  - LukaD 8y ago
    I already am starting work pretty early. I’m usually earlier in the office than most my colleagues. Starting work even earlier ist not really practical for me.
deleted 8y ago
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skywhopper 8y ago
I have no particular attachment to noon meaning "highest point of the sun in the sky". Though I admit I am totally unaware of what time that happens where I live. That said, it would only be a very few people who experience this, even on the "correct" time. Time zones are what disconnected time from the sun, not daylight savings.
reaperducer 8y ago
I'm with you. We should be more in tune with the world and natural measurements rather than less. But the EU also thinks that the metric system is the bee's knees, even though it's just as arbitrary as the imperial system. At least lengths in the imperial system are based on natural averages, and not some bureaucrat that decided to use a distance to Pairs. The equator, I could understand. But using Paris just proves that it's all about political control, and not actually improving a system of measurement.
- Rinzler89 8y ago
  I hope you were sarcastic. Metric system is worldwide not an EU thing and while it was initially just as arbitrary picked as the imperial one it scales linearly in base 10 so you can do conversions mentally without breaking a sweat. I'm curious if you could just as easily convert inches-feet-yards off the top of your head?
  - macintux 8y ago
    > I'm curious if you could just as easily convert inches-feet-yards off the top of your head? For me that's a relatively easy case, because I regularly do that. When it comes to ounces/quarts/pints/gallons though, I'm completely baffled. Give me microliters please: even if I have no idea how to conceive of that now, I know how to convert it trivially.
- ljm 8y ago
  If we want natural measurements we should be basing it all off Fibonacci and the golden spiral, I guess? The metric system is decimal and the orders of magnitude are intuitively consistent (1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000...). If the hang up is that they first chose the distance between Paris and the North Pole for the length of a meter, then that hang up is no more significant than the yard originally being defined as the length of a man's belt (something many people would now consider way too small). Nobody in those times had the technology, insight, and awareness of the world that we currently do, so it was all defined in terms of what they knew. Nothing wrong with that; in the metric system they've all been adjusted to more scientific measurements (e.g. the precise weight of a precious metal, or some calculation on the speed of light)
unethical_ban 8y ago
I like Summer time precisely so people can go outside and enjoy the physical world more. It's miserable to work until 5:30pm and have to turn your headlights on to go home.

spullara 8y ago

Summer time only for me. I have no interest in it getting dark near 5pm. (SF Bay Area)

lr 8y ago
I am in NYC, which is pretty far east in the timezone (although not as east as others), and I still vote for DST being the permanent time.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Boston is quite a bit further east (and north). Personally, I'd go for year-round DST (or Atlantic Time which would effectively be the same thing). You'll never resolve individual preferences though. Some won't want sun at 4AM in the summer; others won't want dark at 4PM in the winter [ADDED: or kids waiting around for school buses in pitch dark]. Get far enough north (and much of Europe is much further north) and there isn't enough light to go around at some times of the year. I used to care more. Now my schedule is mostly flexible enough that I can largely choose when in the day I want it to be light.
  - bostonpete 8y ago
    Permanent DST improves both of your examples (sun rising too early in the summer and setting too early in the winter). The argument against permanent DST in Boston is how dark it would be when kids go to school. Of course the counterarguments are "Alaskans do it" and "you can just adjust school schedules (and the work schedules of all the affected parents...)". In theory, those are both options, but are less desirable for many than the status quo
3chelon 8y ago
Or in the UK where it's dark by 4pm in mid-winter. Give me back my daylight
- nicky0 8y ago
  But if it shifts forward it's be dark in the morning till 9.30am.

bhaak 8y ago

I hate to break this to you but at least in continental Europe, you don't find a big area where the sun is at its highest point in the sky. The CET timezone has that property for the town of Goerlitz or, to a slightly less extend, Vienna. That means almost all of Germany, France, and Spain doesn't already have that property.

zokier 8y ago
Looking at this map[1], it doesn't seem that bad. I mean sure, France, Spain and Benelux could move to +0, but other than that the time zones seem to match reasonably well to solar time all things considered. For example both Berlin and Rome seem to be pretty well matched. Notably it would seem like using summer time would make everything worse, shifting the time zones in wrong direction. [1] http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV2.png http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV...
- pmontra 8y ago
  Summer time is a better match for Italian habits. Business hours are 9 to 18, lunch break at 13. The South of the country has meals at least an hour later than the North. I hope we move to UTC+2.

codethief 8y ago

> Humans are already too disconnected from the physical world, I'd hate to see us completely lose the association of "Noon" with the Sun being at it's highest point in the sky. This has never really been the case to begin as a wide (geographical) range of countries is part of the same time zone, meaning for instance that noon in Spain is not really noon.

Hunisgung 8y ago

In France, the norm is to start work three/four hours before noon and finish six/seven hours after noon (and of course do stuff after work but not before). If we stay on winter time, I can say goodbye to sunlight for most of the year.

EpicEng 8y ago
>In France, the norm is to start work three/four hours before noon and finish six/seven hours after noon You work 9-11 hour days? Doesn't france have a legally defined 35 hour work week and other, fairly stringent laws re max hours / day?
- user5994461 8y ago
  It's 35 hours excluding a 2 hours lunch break, for example 9-12 14-18.
- Hunisgung 8y ago
  The 35 hour work week is mostly implemented by getting additional vacation (on top of the base 25 days off) and (at least for engineers) some contractually agreed overtime (that is already included in the yearly salary you negociate). For example, I have a legal 35 hour per week contract with 38h30 of work per week, the difference being compensated by about 15 additional days off and the rest paid in overtime. Where I work (large private company) working from 9 to 18/19 with a good hour of lunch break is quite standard (with administrative people tending to work more form 8 to 17).
- tonfa 8y ago
  Most qualified jobs have a 39h/week contract (with extra vacation day to compensate), and among those people many seem to do much more with no extra pay (without realizing they actually get a pretty shitty pay for the amount of time they stay at work).

woodson 8y ago

Ponferrada, Spain (42°33′N) has the same time as Skopje, Republic of Macedonia (42°0′N) (both are on CEST); however, in Ponferrada the sun passes through the meridian at 2:20pm today while in Skopje it does at 12:28pm. https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/spain/ponferrada https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/spain/ponferrada https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/republic-of-macedonia/skopje https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/republic-of-macedonia/... With this new regulation, Spain can adopt a time zone that makes more sense for them while not having to change clocks twice a year.

briandear 8y ago
They could have adopted the same time anyway. This regulation has no bearing on Spain choosing to be in CET when they should be on British time.

LukaD 8y ago

I think this is a non issue. I’m just happy that I will be able enjoy more time after work while it’s not dark yet.

briandear 8y ago
I wonder why people couldn’t just start work earlier. The day is the same length.
- rootbear 8y ago
  Yes, exactly! If you want more daylight time after work, just start work earlier! I know not everyone has that luxury. But permanent Daylight Saving Time also makes it darker in the mornings, when kids are going off to school and that isn't necessarily desirable. I think it makes sense to be more flexible about when we schedule things and not further distort the historic understanding of the relationship of the clock to the sky. And yes, I understand that there are many places where this relationship is tenuous, at best.
  - watwut 8y ago
    I would prefer dark while kids go to school in exchange for light after school so they are actually out side playing while there is sun.
    - rootbear 8y ago
      Not an unreasonable attitude, I'll grant.
- pmontra 8y ago
  It's not only work. It's schools, theaters, sport events, tv, dinner time. We must move everything and all the ingrained habits. It's not logic but moving the clock is easier.
- LukaD 8y ago
  I already am starting work pretty early. I’m usually earlier in the office than most my colleagues. Starting work even earlier ist not really practical for me.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

skywhopper 8y ago

I have no particular attachment to noon meaning "highest point of the sun in the sky". Though I admit I am totally unaware of what time that happens where I live. That said, it would only be a very few people who experience this, even on the "correct" time. Time zones are what disconnected time from the sun, not daylight savings.

reaperducer 8y ago

I'm with you. We should be more in tune with the world and natural measurements rather than less. But the EU also thinks that the metric system is the bee's knees, even though it's just as arbitrary as the imperial system. At least lengths in the imperial system are based on natural averages, and not some bureaucrat that decided to use a distance to Pairs. The equator, I could understand. But using Paris just proves that it's all about political control, and not actually improving a system of measurement.

Rinzler89 8y ago
I hope you were sarcastic. Metric system is worldwide not an EU thing and while it was initially just as arbitrary picked as the imperial one it scales linearly in base 10 so you can do conversions mentally without breaking a sweat. I'm curious if you could just as easily convert inches-feet-yards off the top of your head?
- macintux 8y ago
  > I'm curious if you could just as easily convert inches-feet-yards off the top of your head? For me that's a relatively easy case, because I regularly do that. When it comes to ounces/quarts/pints/gallons though, I'm completely baffled. Give me microliters please: even if I have no idea how to conceive of that now, I know how to convert it trivially.
ljm 8y ago
If we want natural measurements we should be basing it all off Fibonacci and the golden spiral, I guess? The metric system is decimal and the orders of magnitude are intuitively consistent (1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000...). If the hang up is that they first chose the distance between Paris and the North Pole for the length of a meter, then that hang up is no more significant than the yard originally being defined as the length of a man's belt (something many people would now consider way too small). Nobody in those times had the technology, insight, and awareness of the world that we currently do, so it was all defined in terms of what they knew. Nothing wrong with that; in the metric system they've all been adjusted to more scientific measurements (e.g. the precise weight of a precious metal, or some calculation on the speed of light)

unethical_ban 8y ago

I like Summer time precisely so people can go outside and enjoy the physical world more. It's miserable to work until 5:30pm and have to turn your headlights on to go home.