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>> The decision to tackle the issue was prompted after the Commission launched an online survey. Some 4.6 million Europeans answered the survey — three million

>> The decision to tackle the issue was prompted after the Commission launched an online survey. Some 4.6 million Europeans answered the survey — three million of those respondents were from Germany — with 80 percent of them voting to scrap the practice. At first glance that approach appears to be a deeply flawed way to make policy which affects 28 member states. What would happen if the commission started asking for more policy-making input from citizens via online surveys?

dabockster 8y ago
Online surveys are a horrible idea for this kind of information gathering. You have effectively zero idea if the respondents are even in the EU. All it takes is a VPN subscription to completely trash an online survey of this nature.
- duedl0r 8y ago
  funny argument. you think it's a horrible idea, propose a flawed way to do it, and debunk it to serve your initial idea. :) how you do think online voting is done? you really think a simple VPN is enough? oh, and btw.. I send my tax statement online. let's hope the russians don't have a VPN connection to Switzerland :)
  - nostromo 8y ago
    One doesn't even need a VPN -- anyone can submit a response. It's basically on the honor code. https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations_en
    - lagadu 8y ago
      So? It's not a vote, it's a consultation. The idea being that anyone can give their input on the matter so it doesn't matter who is responding. The voting part, if it comes to that, comes later by the European Parliament.
      - logifail 8y ago
        Note that the European Parliament can't initiate legislation[1], and the Council appears to be able to ignore Parliament's opinion. "The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament’s opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it" [1] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/powers-and-procedures/legislative-powers http://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/powers-and...
        AnssiH 8y ago
        Note that you quoted the special "Consultation" procedure instead of the ordinary legislative procedure where EP has more power. According to the page, the consultation procedure "is applicable in a limited number of legislative areas, such as internal market exemptions and competition law".
        logifail 8y ago
        There seems to be a distinct lack of evidence that the veto powers are actually used, though; the backroom deals are alive and well? A dearth of legislative vetoes: Why the Council and Parliament have been reluctant to veto Commission legislation http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/10/25/a-dearth-of-legislative-vetoes/ http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/10/25/a-dearth-of-leg... Legislative Scrutiny? The Political Economy and Practice of Legislative Vetoes in the European Union https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jcms.12252 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jcms.12252
- nunobrito 8y ago
  Sure. At the same time they provide useful input from real users too. Humans are good at spotting fake from real input on this kind of surveys. In the end it is merely a way of including ideas and details that sometimes are overlooked. Source: I've supported some of the European Union activities.
- gaius 8y ago
  Online surveys are a horrible idea for this kind of information gathering It skews the demographic towards people who spend alot of time online and like to do surveys. Most working people won't have the time or even know it's there. They might as well set policy by which memes get the most likes.
  - liveoneggs 8y ago
    TimeZone McClockFace
lagadu 8y ago
> What would happen if the commission started asking for more policy-making input from citizens via online surveys? They already do. At any given point in there there are multiple ongoing consultations[0]. It actually works fine. [0] https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations_en
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- logifail 8y ago
  I can't help but think that citizens giving their views on the "Public consultation on the Evaluation of the Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive" isn't quite at the same level as getting rid of daylight savings time.
oblio 8y ago
Everything still has to go through the EU Parliament, no need to panic...
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > Everything still has to go through the EU Parliament, no need to panic... As if the EU Parliament has never voted for half-baked ideas that have disproportionate impact for its member states?
  - paxy 8y ago
    Half-baked or not, the point is that everyone gets a say
    - Kenji 8y ago
      Everyone? I don't get a say. This parliament doesn't represent me. All it does is force decisions on me.
    - logifail 8y ago
      ...then it goes to trilogue[1] for some horse-trading behind closed doors, after which the Council can do whatever it likes[2]? [1] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ordinary-legislative-procedure/en/interinstitutional-negotiations.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ordinary-legislative-procedure... [2] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/powers-and-procedures/legislative-powers http://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/powers-and...
    - briandear 8y ago
      Why don’t the countries just decide for themselves. Why should the EU matter on this?
      - jhasse 8y ago
        Because some times, when there's a way A and a way B, it's better if all are doing B, rather than some A and some B, even if A is better than B.
Aengeuad 8y ago
It may seem like they're throwing policy to the wind but something to consider is that the events leading up to the assessment of DST, as well as the public consultation on the matter, were down to both citizens initiative and feedback as well as Member States directly appealing to the commission, as Lithuania asked for a review on the matter to take into account regional differences and Finland asked for it to be abandoned all together[0]. The matter is now left for the European Parliament and by extension MEPs from individual Member States to vote on, all in all it's like an extended referendum that then needs to be voted on in Parliament, everybody from citizens to elected officials get a say. It's also not too concerning that Germany ended up with 3 million of the citizens consultation vote, it's only a 4% participation rate for Germany and while 25 other Member States only had a participation rate of less than 1% those that voted were overwhelmingly (>75%) in favour of abolishing DST, with only Cyprus, Greece, and Malta being on the fence (with around 50/50%)[1]. It's also the highest amount of responses so far of any public consultation. [0] https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations/2018-summertime-arrangements_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations/2018-summertime-arra... [1] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-5302_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-5302_en.htm
- logifail 8y ago
  >> while 25 other Member States only had a participation rate of less than 1% those that voted were overwhelmingly (>75%) in favour of abolishing DST (Bearing in mind the historical low in the 2014 European elections) how many EU citizens actually knew there was a consultation about this? In any case, asking for responses to a survey if respondants think "X" should be abolished looks to be pretty much the textbook case for selection bias.
addicted 8y ago
I suspect the alternative would be to simply not have the online poll, without anything replacing it. That's likely how it was in the 90s.

dabockster 8y ago

Online surveys are a horrible idea for this kind of information gathering. You have effectively zero idea if the respondents are even in the EU. All it takes is a VPN subscription to completely trash an online survey of this nature.

duedl0r 8y ago
funny argument. you think it's a horrible idea, propose a flawed way to do it, and debunk it to serve your initial idea. :) how you do think online voting is done? you really think a simple VPN is enough? oh, and btw.. I send my tax statement online. let's hope the russians don't have a VPN connection to Switzerland :)
- nostromo 8y ago
  One doesn't even need a VPN -- anyone can submit a response. It's basically on the honor code. https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations_en
  - lagadu 8y ago
    So? It's not a vote, it's a consultation. The idea being that anyone can give their input on the matter so it doesn't matter who is responding. The voting part, if it comes to that, comes later by the European Parliament.
    - logifail 8y ago
      Note that the European Parliament can't initiate legislation[1], and the Council appears to be able to ignore Parliament's opinion. "The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament’s opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it" [1] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/powers-and-procedures/legislative-powers http://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/powers-and...
      - AnssiH 8y ago
        Note that you quoted the special "Consultation" procedure instead of the ordinary legislative procedure where EP has more power. According to the page, the consultation procedure "is applicable in a limited number of legislative areas, such as internal market exemptions and competition law".
        logifail 8y ago
        There seems to be a distinct lack of evidence that the veto powers are actually used, though; the backroom deals are alive and well? A dearth of legislative vetoes: Why the Council and Parliament have been reluctant to veto Commission legislation http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/10/25/a-dearth-of-legislative-vetoes/ http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/10/25/a-dearth-of-leg... Legislative Scrutiny? The Political Economy and Practice of Legislative Vetoes in the European Union https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jcms.12252 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jcms.12252
nunobrito 8y ago
Sure. At the same time they provide useful input from real users too. Humans are good at spotting fake from real input on this kind of surveys. In the end it is merely a way of including ideas and details that sometimes are overlooked. Source: I've supported some of the European Union activities.
gaius 8y ago
Online surveys are a horrible idea for this kind of information gathering It skews the demographic towards people who spend alot of time online and like to do surveys. Most working people won't have the time or even know it's there. They might as well set policy by which memes get the most likes.
- liveoneggs 8y ago
  TimeZone McClockFace

lagadu 8y ago

> What would happen if the commission started asking for more policy-making input from citizens via online surveys? They already do. At any given point in there there are multiple ongoing consultations[0]. It actually works fine. [0] https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations_en

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
logifail 8y ago
I can't help but think that citizens giving their views on the "Public consultation on the Evaluation of the Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive" isn't quite at the same level as getting rid of daylight savings time.

oblio 8y ago

Everything still has to go through the EU Parliament, no need to panic...

chimeracoder 8y ago
> Everything still has to go through the EU Parliament, no need to panic... As if the EU Parliament has never voted for half-baked ideas that have disproportionate impact for its member states?
- paxy 8y ago
  Half-baked or not, the point is that everyone gets a say
  - Kenji 8y ago
    Everyone? I don't get a say. This parliament doesn't represent me. All it does is force decisions on me.
  - logifail 8y ago
    ...then it goes to trilogue[1] for some horse-trading behind closed doors, after which the Council can do whatever it likes[2]? [1] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ordinary-legislative-procedure/en/interinstitutional-negotiations.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ordinary-legislative-procedure... [2] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/powers-and-procedures/legislative-powers http://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/powers-and...
  - briandear 8y ago
    Why don’t the countries just decide for themselves. Why should the EU matter on this?
    - jhasse 8y ago
      Because some times, when there's a way A and a way B, it's better if all are doing B, rather than some A and some B, even if A is better than B.

Aengeuad 8y ago

It may seem like they're throwing policy to the wind but something to consider is that the events leading up to the assessment of DST, as well as the public consultation on the matter, were down to both citizens initiative and feedback as well as Member States directly appealing to the commission, as Lithuania asked for a review on the matter to take into account regional differences and Finland asked for it to be abandoned all together[0]. The matter is now left for the European Parliament and by extension MEPs from individual Member States to vote on, all in all it's like an extended referendum that then needs to be voted on in Parliament, everybody from citizens to elected officials get a say. It's also not too concerning that Germany ended up with 3 million of the citizens consultation vote, it's only a 4% participation rate for Germany and while 25 other Member States only had a participation rate of less than 1% those that voted were overwhelmingly (>75%) in favour of abolishing DST, with only Cyprus, Greece, and Malta being on the fence (with around 50/50%)[1]. It's also the highest amount of responses so far of any public consultation. [0] https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations/2018-summertime-arrangements_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations/2018-summertime-arra... [1] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-5302_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-5302_en.htm

logifail 8y ago
>> while 25 other Member States only had a participation rate of less than 1% those that voted were overwhelmingly (>75%) in favour of abolishing DST (Bearing in mind the historical low in the 2014 European elections) how many EU citizens actually knew there was a consultation about this? In any case, asking for responses to a survey if respondants think "X" should be abolished looks to be pretty much the textbook case for selection bias.

addicted 8y ago

I suspect the alternative would be to simply not have the online poll, without anything replacing it. That's likely how it was in the 90s.