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“Apple believes privacy is a fundamental human right, which is why iOS has always been designed with built-in encryption, on-device intelligence, and other tool

• kyrra 8y ago
  Though I believe Apple bowed to China to give them access to Chinese citizen's iCloud data. But you can operate an iPhone without iCloud fairly easily, which is definitely nice. Doing more on-device helps them here. https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17587304/apple-icloud-china-user-data-state-run-telecom-privacy-security https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17587304/apple-icloud-chi...
  • Rjevski 8y ago
    Can’t you just select US sad your country when setting up the iCloud account and use a VPN? Or are Chinese devices different at the hardware level and only allow connecting to the Chinese (compromised) iCloud?
    • btian 8y ago
      VPNs in China get blocked all the time.
      • torstenvl 8y ago
        Even private VPNs? I'm not that smart about networking but it seems like it would be difficult to distinguish an SSL/TLS connection to your DigitalOcean server because you're doing normal stuff and one where you're tunneling HTTPS through it.
        • selectodude 8y ago
          Their deep packet inspection tech is very very good.
        • viraptor 8y ago
          It's not hard to distinguish a VPN connection by behaviour pattern really. Some simple features to detect: Both small packets and maxing out the window size in one stream. Lack of DNS queries from the host. Single connection dominating the bandwidth. There's a reason for all of those of course, but put them together on a residential connection: almost certainly a VPN user. And these are all really simple heuristics. In practice, we know you can identify which Netflix video are you watching just by the packet sizes/timing.
          • earenndil 8y ago
            There was a post recently about how someone was able to set up his own vpn which bypassed it. Something about the server padding out its response with garbage data?
            • teknologist 8y ago
              You are still piping all of your traffic through one server. This would not look like a regular usage pattern by any means.
    • chatmasta 8y ago
      You need a payment method with a billing address in the country.
      • Rjevski 8y ago
        I believe there are tricks you can use to bypass that (attempting to download a free app?).
  • ksec 8y ago
    Which is why I have been crying for an iOS Time Capsule. I don't want to touch iTunes and do computer backup, that is like a very geeky way do it and most people in China don't even have Laptop or Desktop. If they can make Dual Sim and other features targeting the Chinese market; Apple's second biggest market, why cant they make Time Capsule specifically for China. ( Making it China only will likely piss off the Chinese Government. They could release it worldwide to avoid this.)
    • radicaldreamer 8y ago
      There is an iPhone Time Capsule... it's called iTunes and it has support full, encrypted device backups via home Wifi for years...
      • randomdata 8y ago
        "I don't want to touch iTunes and do computer backup, that is like a very geeky way do it"
        • radicaldreamer 8y ago
          Oops :(
        • plussed_reader 8y ago
          They have iCloud for that.
          • mattnewton 8y ago
            Right, and that’s back-doored by the Chinese government (in China). So neither fits gp’s desired featureset of local & frictionless.
            • raydev 8y ago
              Evidence of back door?
  • snaky 8y ago
    > an iPhone without iCloud Would it send less telemetry data to Apple?
    • oneplane 8y ago
      No, but not turning on telemetry does.
    • threeseed 8y ago
      You are asked every single OS update whether you want to enable telemetry or not. And the default is no.
  • andrewhn 8y ago
    they did isolate the chinese icloud from the rest of the world, so whatever I guess.
  • abalone 8y ago
    Also several of the iCloud services are E2E encrypted and designed to withstand adversarial clouds. They talked about it at Blackhat.[1] Doesn't help things like mail or photos, of course, but it is extremely notable in the China context for one big reason: it does E2E encrypt messages. WhatsApp was banned from China when they implemented this. Apple stands out in this way... although they're probably getting away with it because most Chinese don't use Apple Messages. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U
    • mtgx 8y ago
      Yeah but even if they use e2e, which btw was found to be flawed at the protocol design level by prof. Matthew Greene and his team, they also automatically back-up the messages to iCloud with no way to disable that without disabling the whole of icloud. It would sure be nice if they changed that.
      • mediocrejoker 8y ago
        Can you elaborate on what you mean by "e2e was found to be flawed"? Is the paper available online?
        • coolspot 8y ago
          Commenter probably meant this research[0]. [0] - https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2016/03/21/attack-of-week-apple-imessage/ https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2016/03/21/attack-o...
      • threeseed 8y ago
        There is the option in Settings to disable storing Messages and Backups in iCloud.
        • sneak 8y ago
          ...which does not affect the storing of Messages in device backups into iCloud.
  • kodablah 8y ago
    Without a public statement even saying they disagree with it, which seems to go against their pro-privacy principles and goes against what they've done in other government-based privacy disagreements they've had. I wish they'd make actions against their principles more transparent lest people think it's just lip service they are paying to the masses.
  • 2muchcoffeeman 8y ago
    I have Apple and Android phones. I have a specific google account for my Android phones specifically because you can’t do anything on an Android without logging in. iPhones still work as phones just without cloud storage.
    • drampelt 8y ago
      Maybe I'm missing something here but what can't you do on Android without logging in (other than Google services of course)? You can download apps to do pretty much anything you want without even touching the Play Store, as far as I'm aware you need an iCloud account to download any apps on an iPhone.
      • SpaceGorilla 8y ago
        Yea, not sure what he's talking about. You can choose not to sign into Google and use the web browser to install either fdroid or Aurora as the app store. Pretty sure you need to sign into iTunes to use the apple app store and cannot install any ipa?'s.
• throwaway809484 8y ago
  If I was in charge of Apple, I'd refresh the Mac Mini (it's embarrassing its sold with a 4th gen CPU). And slowly build private cloud capabilities.
• another-cuppa 8y ago
  It is a really interesting marketing move (and don't delude yourself, this is a marketing move). To market a feature that Google can't possibly compete with.
  • xoa 8y ago
    >and don't delude yourself, this is a marketing move I don't think it's just a marketing move necessarily. While power and idealistic managers can have a significant short term impact in direction and culture, in the long term of course financial incentives are generally the single greatest determinator of company behavior. However short term isn't meaningless particularly wrt company cultural values that last longer, and in turn leadership can still matter a lot. I think that may multiply when leadership isn't fighting a company's incentives, but rather there is a chance to bring both together in some ways. All that is leading up to sometimes forgotten (and how great that is!) fact that Apple's current CEO Tim Cook is a gay man who grew up in a time when that was flat out illegal and could be heavily persecuted even in the US, and now lives in a world where it's still something subject to death in many parts of the world. That's not determinative by any means, but I can't imagine it hasn't influenced him at all. One of the core business values of having a more diverse workforce and management team is precisely that they bring a wider set of experiences and viewpoints which can profitably inform the company. I've seen a number of comparisons vs Steve Jobs that have called Tim Cook more "visionless" and "mundane" and so on and so forth, a "competent manager" but without the same animation. I honestly wonder though whether privacy and personal information security is in fact a real animating motivation Tim Cook's. It's inherently a much quieter, subtler one that doesn't on the face of it have the same end user feature impact (by definition). And it is something that can work well with where Apple gets their money and even their own corporate culture of secrecy. But that doesn't mean he can't drive them even farther and harder in that direction in turn then they might have gone otherwise right? Maybe you didn't intend it that way, but when I see "this is a marketing move" it tends to feel dismissive and negative, like it's all just fake and manipulative. But something can be "good PR" while also being a genuine value people hold, in fact if anything I think the most sustainable and best win/wins are when it all comes together, when something someone is doing genuinely for real is good and is worth serious value and in turn is totally reasonable to be proud of and "market". That's the ultimate ideal of the market right, that someone is making something good and gets rewarded in turn?
• rhexs 8y ago
  My guess is that Apple is positioning themselves for an inevitable future where privacy is taken a bit more seriously or at least legislated against. While this seems far fetched right now in the United States with the Google ad monopoly, I think it will eventually come after some form of catastrophic leak (from some user data harvesting conglomerate) involving politicians or other powerful figures. Build the trust now, reap the rewards later. Glad they're doing it.
  • demygale 8y ago
    Many of Aaple’s privacy and encryption efforts have come in response to the US government’s demand for data. If they don’t have access to data or never stored it, the government can’t seize it. Note that the US government’s response to this is to demand encryption back doors. Best case scenario for the future is that these demands will be made publicly so we’ll know it’s not secure.
  • tinus_hn 8y ago
    Apple is positioning itself for a future where they can’t compete on physical features because all phones have all features. They can’t keep building bigger displays forever.
  • threeseed 8y ago
    You have to remember Apple is a global company. And there are journalists being locked up for allegedly compromising state secrets e.g. Myanmar, Cambodia. Dissidents being rounded up and jailed. You have Russia going after former spies and anyone criticising the government. People are literally dying every day because of a true lack of privacy.
  • my_usernam3 8y ago
    "I think it will eventually come after some form of catastrophic leak" ... you mean like a credit reporting agency leaking out ssn and other very important data information of millions. To be fair, as a dedicated apple hater, all these events, plus google's more recent lack of morality decision making, has made me rethink which computer, phone, maps, and search engine I will be using moving forward.
• Silhouette 8y ago
  Privacy is their best feature and it seems like they are doubling down. Indeed. Between that and the imminent arrival of dual-SIM iPhones, I may actually want to buy something here. And yet, for all the information Apple provide about security and privacy, including much talk of end-to-end encryption in some cases, I have so far been unable to determine the fundamental way that all of their online services work and whether they have access to (for example) any photos I take or messages I send from the phone, if I choose to use iCloud services. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
  • FabHK 8y ago
    Have you checked their iOS security guide? It has a section on internet/cloud services. https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.... EDIT to add: DuckDuckGo gave me the above link for the iOS 11 version, but it has actually been updated already for iOS 12.
    • Silhouette 8y ago
      Yes, thanks. Actually, that's the main documentation I was looking at before. I can't figure out from those descriptions how Apple IDs and iCloud keys work, and in particular, whether Apple themselves hold all of the necessary credentials to decrypt data held in iCloud services or whether something remains with the user alone.
  • QasimK 8y ago
    I’ve read the entire iOS security guide (seriously; version ~9/10), and while I don’t remember the specifics, I distinctly remember coming to the conclusion that I could not use most iCloud features as they did not provide the same privacy as on-devices features. I distinctly remember that your photos can be seen by Apple as that was the main thing I wanted to know. Some things, like the keychain, are not accessible by Apple, and only on your enrolled devices.
    • Silhouette 8y ago
• LoSboccacc 8y ago
  I'll have to download and check, but imagine if, this time over, they actually managed to make the "trust this computer" decision persistent so that you don't have to trust the same pc over and over again every time you plug a device to recharge.
• dialtone 8y ago
  The fact that each device has an IDFA that any app can share with literally anyone in the world, without the need to tell you, because IDFA is a quasi-persistent identifier I suppose doesn't matter.
  • codetrotter 8y ago
    First time I've heard of this. It is possible to turn it off though. > note that when ad tracking is limited, the value of the advertising identifier is 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 https://developer.apple.com/documentation/adsupport/asidentifiermanager https://developer.apple.com/documentation/adsupport/asidenti... Here is how you turn it off: 1. Go to Settings > Privacy > Advertising. 2. Turn on Limit Ad Tracking. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202074 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202074
  • FridgeSeal 8y ago
    Some FUD here, both Android and iOS (and Windows Phone, when it was a thing) have these advertising identifiers. Both platforms allow you to disable tracking and/or reset the identifier to something new. However, if you disable tracking on Android, it just changes the value of another variable called (to the effect of) "Ad tracking enabled" and you are politely asked to not "target ads" towards that ID. It's important to note here, that nothing ever stops you, you're just asked to. You can still harvest data, you can still analyse and sell it, but you just can't advertise back to them. In comparison, disabling Ad tracking on iOS gives you the zeroed out advertising ID (which is shared with everyone else who opts out, which means you blend into the crowd (which makes that data more difficult to usefully separate and analyse). Pretty sure Apple doesn't let you bundle dozens of Advertising SDK's that harvest everything by default either.
• I_am_tiberius 8y ago
  I would like to believe them. But I can't. It would be so great if they could open source the part of their software that makes it possible to verify its degree of privacy. A company just writing they're taking privacy seriously... I don't believe it.
  • JustSomeNobody 8y ago
    why open source it? where else would/could it be used? Now, I would like a third party to audit it. That would be great.
  • ralmeida 8y ago
    A third-party audit, like mentioned in a sibling comment, would be great. Many claims are verifiable, however, especially the claims that data remains on your device - just run it without internet, or sniff the traffic.
    • I_am_tiberius 8y ago
      Sniffing the traffic does not help if the content that leaves your phone is encrytped by applications that are binaries.
• elorant 8y ago
  Considering that Google is the exact opposite it may be a marketing strategy to lure clients to iPhone.
  • epicide 8y ago
    That's pretty clearly the reason, but helps us nonetheless.
• make3 8y ago
  I believe that this is just strategic marketing to position their products vs Google, not some deeply held belief. It's still valuable ofc.
• ljm 8y ago
  Provided this position is 100% genuine (and by all accounts, there is no clear indication that it isn't), that it comes from Apple gives the pro-privacy stance a hell of a lot of clout. If a company like Apple is investing in privacy then the consumer must assume that privacy has a lot more value than the government insists, no? For those who are security conscious it's a great reason to get an iPhone over an Android (or whatever variation). For those who aren't and who just like the iPhone because it's trendy and cool, they are getting privacy for free. There's a chance that this might set an expectation when choosing the next phone, as privacy pushes further into the public consciousness. I would like to think there's a greater play, though, and that is humanity. Apple doesn't solve all its problems with tech/machine learning; they don't give you up to the mathematics. This makes some of their offering flawed when you compare it against what Google offers, but at the same time that's not such a bad thing. You won't get your entire digital life wiped out of existence, without recourse, because a calculation made an executive decision. If, as a developer, your app gets removed from the App Store or doesn't pass in the first place, it's because a human looked at it while also using a specialised toolkit. You get proper customer service, physical stores and authorised resellers... They make as many poor choices as any other company but I appreciate their priorities and values.
  • j2bax 8y ago
    I've asked this before on here and didn't get much of a response. If Apple truly believes in privacy, does this mean that they have a strict policy against using the data provided by companies that have a lower ethical stance on data collection? Is it more ethical to pay and benefit from the data for targeted advertising than it is to collect the data yourself? Edit: On re-read I thought it might be unclear what I'm asking. Does Apple use Facebook and Google data for targeted advertising?
    • mattnewton 8y ago
      Your question is still unclear to me: are you asking if they advertise on platforms that collect and use data to match users with ads (Facebook and google), or if they buy data from firms to use in their own advertisements / marketing campaigns. I don’t know the answer to either question, but I assume the answer to the first is yes of course they advertise on these platforms (on google at least), and the answer to the second is, I hope No.
• lukev 8y ago
  This is the primary reason I'm sticking with Apple over Android, even as Android hardware gets nicer and Apple software gets worse. I don't take everything they say on faith, of course, but it seems plausible for them to take that stance given that their business model is to build and sell phones and software, as opposed to building up a profile of me to sell to advertisers.
• filipMar 8y ago
  On the other hand, Apple does not think that freedom of expression is a fundamental human right (since freedom of expression is also the freedom to install the apps you want without a gatekeeper) Their devices are completely locked down, and the user is helpless if Apple decides to become hostile, like in China where all iCloud data is in the hands of the Chinese government and many apps are banned.
• int_19h 8y ago
  The way they describe the implementation, it basically sounds like they're intentionally trying to screw Facebook and Google. That it also benefits the user is likely just a side-effect, but that's what marketing is for.
  • jonathanyc 8y ago
    That’s how capitalism should work, buddy—companies competing with each other to win users. I absolutely do not see why this is a problem.
    • int_19h 8y ago
      I didn't say that it is a problem. I'm just saying that it's a more likely explanation than Apple suddenly being sincerely concerned about everybody's privacy. If it benefits us, I couldn't care less either way.
• wpdev_63 8y ago
  It will be interesting to see if they "fixed the bugs" that allows the nsa onto ios. points browser to eff.org Ever since that letter I can't take Tim Cook or Apple by their word.
• woolvalley 8y ago
  Now they need to make everything on iCloud to be e2e encrypted. I wouldn't mind sacrificing the web client interface to do this, but I could imagine that you could make a web client that respects the e2e / client side encrypted use case. Then I would be comfortable in having my photos and notes on icloud.
• lisper 8y ago
  > Apple believes privacy is a fundamental human right But not the ability to run software not approved by Apple.
  • headsoup 8y ago
    Apple also believe providing them with significant margins is also a fundamental human right. I think this push is because other differentiators (that justify their 'premium' price) are running out...
    • r00fus 8y ago
      Apple's massive profit share notwithstanding.
  • beagle3 8y ago
    You can with a local dev certificate. But you can’t distribute it to others, unless they have one themselves we.
    • lisper 8y ago
      But to get a local dev cert you have to ask Apple, so it amounts to the same thing.
• craftyguy 8y ago
  > on-device intelligence The fuck does that have to do with privacy? That's an incredible vague thing they are saying. Does it decide what is/isn't 'private' information for sharing? It just seems way out of context, and odd, to be mentioning in the same sentence.
  • r00fus 8y ago
    Well, if you need to share private information to eg Facebook's cloud infrastructure just to gain their AI intelligence then you've given up your information and arguably privacy. By providing more On-device intelligence Apple believes you may prevent or reduce that initial egress of data outside your hardware where it's stored encrypted. Feel free to argue the point but no need for the histrionics.
    • brandonjm 8y ago
      A good example is the image tagging in Photos which has been there for quite a while, if you search for a term in your images folder it'll show you images they classified with that term. This applies regardless of if you are using iCloud or not as the classification is performed locally, keeping your images on your device as opposed to sending them off to be classified on a server somewhere.
  • teknologist 8y ago
    It means it would do e.g. the adjustable photo background bokeh effect on your device via its onboard NPU rather than upload it to Apple servers for them to process it for you.
  • wmblaettler 8y ago
    In part, I would think they are referring to CoreML, onboard machine learning framework.