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> That 5c you give doesn't accomplish anything by itself. If the recipient uses it to buy a slice of bread, the merchant could have just given the slice to him

> That 5c you give doesn't accomplish anything by itself. If the recipient uses it to buy a slice of bread, the merchant could have just given the slice to him for free. Now you'll say, "The merchant needs the 5c more than I do", but again, no: no-one eats nickels. If the merchant 'needs' the 5c to buy his baby son some milk, again, the dairy could give him the milk for free. I get that, though admittedly it's a very strange point. What's the tactile, real world application of this line of thought? Ie, it sounds like you're making a random argument akin to "we could all be in a dream, why try?". I'm not mocking your argument, I'm stating that it feels oddly philosophical in a real world. Yes, that 5c doesn't inherently do anything. Yet, why should I expect the merchant accept the work for free? I'm the rich one, not the merchant. Which is my point - I'm acting, I'm doing something with the excess I have. And yes, I am thinking of money as having an intrinsic value. "Convincing people to do things" has a form of value to me, and I imagine is very valuable to the person who needs bread considers money to buy bread very valuable. Again, your argument feels.. weirdly philosophical.. which again, is not me bashing your argument/you in the slightest. I mean no disrespect. > Money is a tool for convincing people to do things. Bezos could use his fortune to convince people to do nice actions to each other, but if he doesn't, those people could still do those nice actions to each other anyway. The surgeon does not literally need the money as if he was going to use the dollar bills as a suture (lol). Paradoxically, by saying Bezos has an obligation to donate money, you're essentially saying Bezos has an obligation to dictate how people should act. Somehow I doubt that was your intention! I think I fail to see it that way, honestly. If Bezos buys a movie ticket, is he dictating how people act? He's purchasing a ticket, which is a tool to convince people to do things - but again, this seems like an academic definition. To think of it differently, if Bezos buys 2 loafs of bread, one for himself and one for another person as charity - does it matter what definitions we use here? He can afford to buy more loafs than anyone he knows. He can buy a near infinite number of loafs, especially compared to the bread maker who didn't do the work for free. Yes, the surgeon, bread maker, etc all could have done the work for free - but they don't have as much of this "convincing tool" as Bezos has. This is why I think this argument is weirdly philosophical. I can instead just say everything I've said with the words "convincing tool" used instead of "money" and I feel like nothing changes on my argument. Bezos has more convincing power than almost anyone in the world. Whether or not it has intrinsic value is .. imo, irrelevant. Bezos' convincing power is leagues beyond that of the surgeon. Like mine is leagues beyond that of the 3rd world homeless man. I'm struggling to see what labels matter here. At the end of the day, we're just talking about helping people, and how many tools you have to do so. When put so simply, does any of this debate.. matter? Is this debate more than just pedantic?

xamuel 8y ago
>oddly philosophical Well, I'm a logician, so maybe that's inevitable :) >I'm the rich one, not the merchant Saying "I'm the rich one" is appealing to the fallacy of money as fixed natural resource. Try this: instead of picturing yourself as rich, picture yourself as a renowned hero, maybe you've cured cancer. Does the fact you've cured cancer place on you an obligation to use your celebrity status to convince the merchant to give the homeless man bread? No! If anything, people should have an obligation to give YOU bread. Why would it be an axiom that "whoever has done the most to improve the world, is the most obligated to improve the world more"? That's essentially what you're saying, except it gets all confused because you replace "done the most to improve the world" by "has the most money", and treat money like a fixed natural resource. >If Bezos buys a movie ticket, is he dictating how people act? Yes, on a small scale. >He can buy a near infinite number of loafs No, as soon as he started buying on super-industrial scale, he would drive the price way up. He probably couldn't even buy all the bread in one city, at least not all at once. This again illustrates the money-as-resource confusion people have. If it were a video game and the bread vendor were an NPC with an unlimited amount of bread with a hard-coded price, then yes, Bezos would be able to buy a practically infinite amount. (In which case, the vendor would be more of a force-of-nature than a person, and the ability to exchange dollars for bread would be a fundamental law of nature. When you think of it this way, video games have very, very, very weird physics :) >I can instead just say everything I've said with the words "convincing tool" used instead of "money" Yes, now you're starting to understand :) And so, when you say Bezos is obligated to donate money, you're essentially saying Bezos is obligated to act as a benevolent king/dictator. The act of choosing which scientist to give the money to is no different than the act of a king/dictator deciding which scientist gets a royal commission, etc.
- asdkhadsj 8y ago
  > Yes, now you're starting to understand :) And so, when you say Bezos is obligated to donate money, you're essentially saying Bezos is obligated to act as a benevolent king/dictator. The act of choosing which scientist to give the money to is no different than the act of a king/dictator deciding which scientist gets a royal commission, etc. Not exactly. I'm saying that people naturally want to help others. To think of it differently: If I could give 5c to help someone I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I increased my income 100fold (or some astronomical number), I would expect that 5c figure to also increase by a similar amount. I would sincerely hope that should I obtain this 100fold increase, my desire to help people would not change. This philosophical debate seems.. odd, and entirely off mark imo. All that matters is the world around me (and each of us). I am only one man, I can only do what I can. If I can give 5c to someone directly and it helps them, great. If I buy bread for them with 5c and it helps them, great. The specifics don't matter to me, my thoughts are that I expect most people to naturally want to help others. Yes, the bread maker also wants to help people. Yes the surgeon also wants to help people. Yes, Bezos should want to help people. No he's not obligated to, but as I said, I consider most people good. That goes back to my question of why people with so much, do so little. And yes, I am again using money as a resource. Which fundamentally I don't want to debate, because anything you call a resource I can buy with money, so I'm trying to avoid (what I feel is) pointless philosophical debate. So if we can step aside what we call a resource or not, if we can agree that I can help people with what is in my bank account, then we don't need to debate. If we can't agree that I can help people with money.. then I don't know where to even go. I fundamentally do not understand you if that tiny agreement is not possible. At that point, I'd even question if you're just being purposefully difficult/pedantic... no disrespect meant, I said it's a hypothetical question, not that you are.

xamuel 8y ago

>oddly philosophical Well, I'm a logician, so maybe that's inevitable :) >I'm the rich one, not the merchant Saying "I'm the rich one" is appealing to the fallacy of money as fixed natural resource. Try this: instead of picturing yourself as rich, picture yourself as a renowned hero, maybe you've cured cancer. Does the fact you've cured cancer place on you an obligation to use your celebrity status to convince the merchant to give the homeless man bread? No! If anything, people should have an obligation to give YOU bread. Why would it be an axiom that "whoever has done the most to improve the world, is the most obligated to improve the world more"? That's essentially what you're saying, except it gets all confused because you replace "done the most to improve the world" by "has the most money", and treat money like a fixed natural resource. >If Bezos buys a movie ticket, is he dictating how people act? Yes, on a small scale. >He can buy a near infinite number of loafs No, as soon as he started buying on super-industrial scale, he would drive the price way up. He probably couldn't even buy all the bread in one city, at least not all at once. This again illustrates the money-as-resource confusion people have. If it were a video game and the bread vendor were an NPC with an unlimited amount of bread with a hard-coded price, then yes, Bezos would be able to buy a practically infinite amount. (In which case, the vendor would be more of a force-of-nature than a person, and the ability to exchange dollars for bread would be a fundamental law of nature. When you think of it this way, video games have very, very, very weird physics :) >I can instead just say everything I've said with the words "convincing tool" used instead of "money" Yes, now you're starting to understand :) And so, when you say Bezos is obligated to donate money, you're essentially saying Bezos is obligated to act as a benevolent king/dictator. The act of choosing which scientist to give the money to is no different than the act of a king/dictator deciding which scientist gets a royal commission, etc.

asdkhadsj 8y ago
> Yes, now you're starting to understand :) And so, when you say Bezos is obligated to donate money, you're essentially saying Bezos is obligated to act as a benevolent king/dictator. The act of choosing which scientist to give the money to is no different than the act of a king/dictator deciding which scientist gets a royal commission, etc. Not exactly. I'm saying that people naturally want to help others. To think of it differently: If I could give 5c to help someone I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I increased my income 100fold (or some astronomical number), I would expect that 5c figure to also increase by a similar amount. I would sincerely hope that should I obtain this 100fold increase, my desire to help people would not change. This philosophical debate seems.. odd, and entirely off mark imo. All that matters is the world around me (and each of us). I am only one man, I can only do what I can. If I can give 5c to someone directly and it helps them, great. If I buy bread for them with 5c and it helps them, great. The specifics don't matter to me, my thoughts are that I expect most people to naturally want to help others. Yes, the bread maker also wants to help people. Yes the surgeon also wants to help people. Yes, Bezos should want to help people. No he's not obligated to, but as I said, I consider most people good. That goes back to my question of why people with so much, do so little. And yes, I am again using money as a resource. Which fundamentally I don't want to debate, because anything you call a resource I can buy with money, so I'm trying to avoid (what I feel is) pointless philosophical debate. So if we can step aside what we call a resource or not, if we can agree that I can help people with what is in my bank account, then we don't need to debate. If we can't agree that I can help people with money.. then I don't know where to even go. I fundamentally do not understand you if that tiny agreement is not possible. At that point, I'd even question if you're just being purposefully difficult/pedantic... no disrespect meant, I said it's a hypothetical question, not that you are.