5 ms·

You do realize issues about immigration aren't just about jobs, its about having a home. Maybe it's too hard for the rootless masses on HN to understand what it

You do realize issues about immigration aren't just about jobs, its about having a home. Maybe it's too hard for the rootless masses on HN to understand what its like being rooted in an area over generations to just watch it become a foreign country within a decade. Then to be told if only you cared more about climate change everything would be fine...

bryanlarsen 8y ago
Opposition against immigration is highest in areas with very little immigration, and support for it is highest in areas with a lot of it.
- deleted 8y ago
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- Rubinsalamander 8y ago
  Which kinda makes sense. Why would you life in an area with high Immigration if you dont Like/Support it. You would have to look at the data of people living in areas where Immigration just begins/recently started to see if they are happy about it
  - mschuster91 8y ago
    > You would have to look at the data of people living in areas where Immigration just begins/recently started to see if they are happy about it I live in Munich. Aside from exorbitant rents caused by politicians ignoring housing issues for decades, we don't have a significant problem w/ immigrants and refugees. We do have a couple Nazi groups (two different Pegida groups, plus the "old" NPD nazi party plus the AfD neo-fash) with maybe two dozen people on the streets, but no one except Antifa gives a flying f..k about them.
    - Rubinsalamander 8y ago
      The exorbitant rents were the reason i didnt move to Munich, but Nuremberg. Rent is a Gatekeeper though, only "succesfull" people can afford to live there. The conflict seems to be more about gentrification. Also i personally dont know anybody who got negatively affected (besides closed school Gyms) by the refugee crisis, but many worry anyways. Probaly Social Media makes it feel worse then it is,similar to people feeling less safe now despite way lower crime rates.
  - bryanlarsen 8y ago
    Internal immigration flows fairly closely correlate with external immigration flows. In other words, people are moving from areas of low immigration to areas of high immigration, not the other way around.
    - Rubinsalamander 8y ago
      My point was: Are people who live in an area for a long time happy if a low immigration area turns into a high immigration area. High immigration(besides nearby catastrophes) usually means something good happended to the area. So people can have the same overall happiness but for different reasons. For example: Job opportunities are better now, Property prices are rising(Great my home is worth more), but it feels less at home then before.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
BenjaminBlair 8y ago
But isn't it a problem of integration? Globalization did happen and open borders were celebrated both culturally and economically. I understand that people care about their neighborhood, but I think it has a lot to do about safety. If the immigrants do get lower waged jobs or don't get jobs at all, or if it's harder for them to get equal opportunities then, even if it's definitely wrong, crime becomes the solution. And that's what needs to be addressed.
mschuster91 8y ago
> to just watch it become a foreign country within a decade. Jeez, that's basically directly quoted out of the conspiracy theory playbook ("Umvolkung"). Germany has 5% Muslims and people whine about Islamization. It's bollocks fueled by media. When media and politicians does nothing but draw migrants or "foreign" people as problems, then you'll see the non-whites on the streets automatically, subconsciously, as a problem. THIS is why the Nazi rhetoric and framing is so dangerous.
- adrianN 8y ago
  Germany has 5% Muslims now, but they reproduce at a much higher rate. Unless they manage to integrate those children much better than in the past, in two generations Muslims will be a majority.
  - mkaziz 8y ago
    The rate is high enough that in two generations they'll go from 5% to 51%?
    - turtlecloud 8y ago
      Doesn’t seem too far fetched. If a Muslim family on avg has kids around early 20s and have about 3kids each vs avg European family starting in early 30s and having 1 kid on avg.. In 60 yrs - Muslim pop will have 8x while European population will be at 1.75x If Muslims are at 5%, they will then turn to 25% of population vs 75% Germans after 60 years. The population change is exponential. A lot of things that change you won’t even notice until it’s too late.
      - mschuster91 8y ago
        > The population change is exponential. That assumes that reproduction rate stays constant. Fact is: after the second generation, reproduction rate is only a tiny bit above the one of the "host country" (per http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/demografische-studie-migranten-bekommen-nicht-mehr-kinder-als-deutsche-a-711143.html http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/demografische-stud...). The reason is that while first generation women usually stay at home and care for kids, second and following generation women go to universities and then into jobs which means delayed childbirth and less kids overall (because each kid means a drop in career). In addition, Germany has easy and cheap access to family planning - everything from pill and condoms over "plan b pill" to abortions - than typical "origin countries", further lowering the rate of unwanted pregnancies. Altogether, the "Umvolkung" theory is utter bullshit spewed out especially by the Identitäre Bewegung neo nazis.
bildung 8y ago
> You do realize issues about immigration aren't just about jobs, its about having a home. Maybe it's too hard for the rootless masses on HN to understand what its like being rooted in an area over generations to just watch it become a foreign country within a decade. The amusing thing in the case of Germany is that the country never really was a real nation with a unifying culture etc (like e.g. France). Having only been unified in 1871, it was a hodgepodge of dukedoms for centuries. It's for example completely arbitrary that Bavaria became part of Germany but Austria didn't. To this day there is no unifying culture to speak of, e.g. the stereotypical German-Bavarian would scoff at "traditional" food from Northern Germany and vice versa. It was migration, immigration and arbitrarily drawn borders since practically forever. Many inhabitants of northern Germany have slavic surnames, because half of the local population has been wiped out in the Thirty Years' War, with immigrants replacing the dead. We don't even have a common religous tradition.
Jonnax 8y ago
So it's racism then? Because if it was white people moving into their hometowns then you/they wouldn't feel like a foreigner.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Most people mostly don't care so long as the new residents don't gentrify the crap out of the place. White people tend to be the biggest offenders in the gentrification regard but people tend to take it out on the newcomers who are visibly different from them so in white communities it because an "immigration problem" and in nonwhite communities it becomes a "gentrification problem".
mikeash 8y ago
Immigration is just about the most American thing there is. If you think having a bunch of immigrants move in makes the area “a foreign country” then you have no idea what this country is even about. If being around different ethnicities bothers you, then I suggest returning to your ancestral homeland.
SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
> Maybe it's too hard for the rootless masses on HN to understand what its like being rooted in an area over generations to just watch it become a foreign country within a decade. I can't remember the exact number, but the majority population feels threatened when the non-majority reaches some like 5-10% of the total population. When you feel threatened, the minority population isn't exactly overwhelming. America has had this kind of xenophobia before. Irish, Italians, Ukranians, Jews, it's all the same noise, and it turns out the same - you still have America, it's just a little different, a little more culturally complex. And don't give me that whole "but they aren't integrating" shtick. They may not integrate easily, but 2 generations from now their grand kids will be as American as anybody.

bryanlarsen 8y ago

Opposition against immigration is highest in areas with very little immigration, and support for it is highest in areas with a lot of it.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Rubinsalamander 8y ago
Which kinda makes sense. Why would you life in an area with high Immigration if you dont Like/Support it. You would have to look at the data of people living in areas where Immigration just begins/recently started to see if they are happy about it
- mschuster91 8y ago
  > You would have to look at the data of people living in areas where Immigration just begins/recently started to see if they are happy about it I live in Munich. Aside from exorbitant rents caused by politicians ignoring housing issues for decades, we don't have a significant problem w/ immigrants and refugees. We do have a couple Nazi groups (two different Pegida groups, plus the "old" NPD nazi party plus the AfD neo-fash) with maybe two dozen people on the streets, but no one except Antifa gives a flying f..k about them.
  - Rubinsalamander 8y ago
    The exorbitant rents were the reason i didnt move to Munich, but Nuremberg. Rent is a Gatekeeper though, only "succesfull" people can afford to live there. The conflict seems to be more about gentrification. Also i personally dont know anybody who got negatively affected (besides closed school Gyms) by the refugee crisis, but many worry anyways. Probaly Social Media makes it feel worse then it is,similar to people feeling less safe now despite way lower crime rates.
- bryanlarsen 8y ago
  Internal immigration flows fairly closely correlate with external immigration flows. In other words, people are moving from areas of low immigration to areas of high immigration, not the other way around.
  - Rubinsalamander 8y ago
    My point was: Are people who live in an area for a long time happy if a low immigration area turns into a high immigration area. High immigration(besides nearby catastrophes) usually means something good happended to the area. So people can have the same overall happiness but for different reasons. For example: Job opportunities are better now, Property prices are rising(Great my home is worth more), but it feels less at home then before.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

BenjaminBlair 8y ago

But isn't it a problem of integration? Globalization did happen and open borders were celebrated both culturally and economically. I understand that people care about their neighborhood, but I think it has a lot to do about safety. If the immigrants do get lower waged jobs or don't get jobs at all, or if it's harder for them to get equal opportunities then, even if it's definitely wrong, crime becomes the solution. And that's what needs to be addressed.

mschuster91 8y ago

> to just watch it become a foreign country within a decade. Jeez, that's basically directly quoted out of the conspiracy theory playbook ("Umvolkung"). Germany has 5% Muslims and people whine about Islamization. It's bollocks fueled by media. When media and politicians does nothing but draw migrants or "foreign" people as problems, then you'll see the non-whites on the streets automatically, subconsciously, as a problem. THIS is why the Nazi rhetoric and framing is so dangerous.

adrianN 8y ago
Germany has 5% Muslims now, but they reproduce at a much higher rate. Unless they manage to integrate those children much better than in the past, in two generations Muslims will be a majority.
- mkaziz 8y ago
  The rate is high enough that in two generations they'll go from 5% to 51%?
  - turtlecloud 8y ago
    Doesn’t seem too far fetched. If a Muslim family on avg has kids around early 20s and have about 3kids each vs avg European family starting in early 30s and having 1 kid on avg.. In 60 yrs - Muslim pop will have 8x while European population will be at 1.75x If Muslims are at 5%, they will then turn to 25% of population vs 75% Germans after 60 years. The population change is exponential. A lot of things that change you won’t even notice until it’s too late.
    - mschuster91 8y ago
      > The population change is exponential. That assumes that reproduction rate stays constant. Fact is: after the second generation, reproduction rate is only a tiny bit above the one of the "host country" (per http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/demografische-studie-migranten-bekommen-nicht-mehr-kinder-als-deutsche-a-711143.html http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/demografische-stud...). The reason is that while first generation women usually stay at home and care for kids, second and following generation women go to universities and then into jobs which means delayed childbirth and less kids overall (because each kid means a drop in career). In addition, Germany has easy and cheap access to family planning - everything from pill and condoms over "plan b pill" to abortions - than typical "origin countries", further lowering the rate of unwanted pregnancies. Altogether, the "Umvolkung" theory is utter bullshit spewed out especially by the Identitäre Bewegung neo nazis.

bildung 8y ago

> You do realize issues about immigration aren't just about jobs, its about having a home. Maybe it's too hard for the rootless masses on HN to understand what its like being rooted in an area over generations to just watch it become a foreign country within a decade. The amusing thing in the case of Germany is that the country never really was a real nation with a unifying culture etc (like e.g. France). Having only been unified in 1871, it was a hodgepodge of dukedoms for centuries. It's for example completely arbitrary that Bavaria became part of Germany but Austria didn't. To this day there is no unifying culture to speak of, e.g. the stereotypical German-Bavarian would scoff at "traditional" food from Northern Germany and vice versa. It was migration, immigration and arbitrarily drawn borders since practically forever. Many inhabitants of northern Germany have slavic surnames, because half of the local population has been wiped out in the Thirty Years' War, with immigrants replacing the dead. We don't even have a common religous tradition.

Jonnax 8y ago

So it's racism then? Because if it was white people moving into their hometowns then you/they wouldn't feel like a foreigner.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Most people mostly don't care so long as the new residents don't gentrify the crap out of the place. White people tend to be the biggest offenders in the gentrification regard but people tend to take it out on the newcomers who are visibly different from them so in white communities it because an "immigration problem" and in nonwhite communities it becomes a "gentrification problem".

mikeash 8y ago

Immigration is just about the most American thing there is. If you think having a bunch of immigrants move in makes the area “a foreign country” then you have no idea what this country is even about. If being around different ethnicities bothers you, then I suggest returning to your ancestral homeland.

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago

> Maybe it's too hard for the rootless masses on HN to understand what its like being rooted in an area over generations to just watch it become a foreign country within a decade. I can't remember the exact number, but the majority population feels threatened when the non-majority reaches some like 5-10% of the total population. When you feel threatened, the minority population isn't exactly overwhelming. America has had this kind of xenophobia before. Irish, Italians, Ukranians, Jews, it's all the same noise, and it turns out the same - you still have America, it's just a little different, a little more culturally complex. And don't give me that whole "but they aren't integrating" shtick. They may not integrate easily, but 2 generations from now their grand kids will be as American as anybody.