15 ms·

Nextspace – NeXTSTEP-like desktop environment for Linux

280 points by valeg 8y ago

adammenges 8y ago
Huh, this is pretty cool, if anything as something to install in a VM and get a blast from the past
itomato 8y ago
I haven't dug into the code, but how does this differ from GWorkspace and other GNUstep components (Prefs, Terminal, Login, et .)?
- peatmoss 8y ago
  I've not dug deeper than reading the page and looking at the screenshots, but it looks like he’s making some sane default choices such as to use WindowMaker for the dock rather than GWorkspace’s dock. And it appears he's working to put more and more into the Prefs app (rather than, for example, configuring WindowMaker through WindowMaker’s preference manager app). GNUStep already has quite a lot there for making a desktop. What it’s lacking is the implementation of the desktop. This, on the surface, appears to be an attempt to round that out.
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    I'm not sure using WindowMaker is sane at all. WindowMaker is a completely isolated C implementation with its own GUI toolkit. It's not integrated at all with the rest of GNUStep. It only appears NeXT-like, it's a facade. GNUStep should ulimately replace it, if this is to be some kind of NeXTSTEP replica beyond skin-deep appearances.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Isn't GNUStep dead, stuck in some level of Panther compatibility?
    - peatmoss 8y ago
      That’s fair. He at least appears to have created a configuration app that is a integrated with prefs, which makes the alienness of WindowMaker less exposed. On the other hand the dock in GWorkspace is pretty non-functional by comparison.
    - trunkmaster 8y ago
      Workspace is a new application that contains WindowMaker. And it _is_ fully integrated with GNUstep applications. This is not a facade, this is how OPENSTEP feels. Just give it a try.
peterwwillis 8y ago
I really like WindowMaker and similar clones, but (warning: ranting) I partially abandoned it because of how absurd it is to try to run a Linux system without DBUS-native tooling, which mostly only exists in GUIs for specific window managers/docks. Unless you're using one of a few popular desktop environments, Linux is a shitshow of bad user interface (and even some of them like Ubuntu seem to lack functionality that used to exist). I'm probably moving to Windows soon just so I don't have to spend days to get an affordable machine from 2 years ago to achieve basic hardware functionality like "graphics" and "wifi".
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  It's incredibly easy to start whatever you want from any environment. Normally a wm will come with a way to start apps or run scripts you can start whatever tools you need there. Example gnome starts pulseaudio if you are run a minimal environment it probably does not depend on a particular sound daemon or have anything to do with sound so instead if you want pulse you simply run pulseaudio --start in your config. I've never had a problem with wifi drivers and Linux perhaps because I've always bought devices with good Linux support. Gpu similar. Used to be the rule was buy Nvidia install official drivers, no step 3. Now newer amd are supposed to be well supported with just open source drivers. Honestly before I buy hardware I search insert hardware +Linux and if I can't find anything or discover issues with no obvious solutions I buy something else and experience few problems.
- eikenberry 8y ago
  What do you miss without the DBUS-native tooling?
  - adrianratnapala 8y ago
    DBus based tooling gives you ways with the sysadmin complexities introduced by the same brilliant minds that brought us systemd and pulseaudio.
    - filmor 8y ago
stevedekorte 8y ago
This is great. Nice work.
andrewstuart 8y ago
I loved NextSTEP so I bought a Mac, which IS NextSTEP, only better.
- protomyth 8y ago
  I miss the NeXTSTEP menus, that Mac toolbar is horrid on large monitors. Also, the Finder is a poor second compared to Workspace Manager. The lack of EOF and the Digital Librarian is painful.
  - sgt 8y ago
    The Mac toolbar is thin and neat - not sure how that qualifies as "horrid"? I am using a 27" monitor.
    - protomyth 8y ago
      I have a 34” monitor, so scrolling up to the upper left every time I need to select a menu item is horrid. Plus, they got rid of the amazingly useful tear off menu customization. The Mac toolbar is a big step backwards.
      - sgt 8y ago
        Then just use CTRL-F2, it's a shortcut to select the menu item. Although with such a big monitor, I'd say the biggest challenge is to move your eyes all the way up to where the menu bar might be. Unless of course you're sitting 10 feet away.
        protomyth 8y ago
        Ok, but missing the point if I have to use a keyboard to make it work better. The menu bar on the NeXT was a joy, obvious, and right next to where I was working.
  - Bradlinc 8y ago
    I never used NeXTSTEP but I am always curious about what didn't make the transition to Mac OS X. Was the Digital Librarian different than Spotlight?
Fnoord 8y ago
On the bottom they mentioned [1] Etoile. [1] http://etoileos.com http://etoileos.com
- IronBacon 8y ago
  Thanks, I was trying to recall this one. Looks like it didn't gained traction tho.
peatmoss 8y ago
I imagine a world in which the F/OSS community chose to implement and innovate on GNUStep or some other OpenSTEP/NeXT/Cocoa compatible implementation. This project is exciting by way of providing a more complete nucleus of what that desktop might look like. The KDE/Gnome schism really divided the mindshare of the open *nix desktop. If we’d gone this route, I like to imagine the differences between Mac and Linux or BSD would be small enough that - Mac apps would be a recompile away from running on Linux And - Linux would be a viable developer environment to target macOS Apple’s commitment to the desktop has waned and caused some longtime users like me to go back to Linux/BSD. Meanwhile, desktop facilities on Linux/BSD have lacked coherence and singularity of vision. A viable, modern post-OpenSTEP Linux and BSD desktop would have the capacity to keep Apple honest, while giving the Free community a benchmark for consistency. I’d love to see something like this project blossom into a 3rd way GUI layer for Linux and BSD.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Objective-C never had much love outside NeXT and this was even an issue for Apple, which offered Java support in the begging on parity with Objective-C while they weren't sure about the Mac OS developer's receptivity to it. They only dropped Java after being validated that Mac developer community was fine with Objective-C. Also lets not forget OS X could have been some evolution of BeOS and NeXT while innovative, wasn't going to last much longer alone on the workstation market.
  - informatimago 8y ago
    May be it would have been more popular to make the bolder move of using Smalltalk. At least, this choice would have been more sustainable than Objective-C, which has to be replaced now by Swift. Swift is not bad, apart for the botched argument list syntax; do it smalltalk-like like in Objective-C or indeed Smalltalk, or do it algol-like, but this mix is ugly! Or of course, to just use Lisp, because let's remember that 95% of the success of NeXTstep was due to the Interface Builder which was just an Objective-C rewrite of a Lisp program!
    - 8y ago
Ezhik 8y ago
Oh how I'd love to have Quartz/Aqua/Finder on top of Linux.
htor 8y ago
beautiful. in a weird way it almost looks modern.
rogual 8y ago
> I intentionally left aside modern UI design trends (fancy animations, shadows, gray blurry lines, flat controls, acid colours, transparency). I like this accurate, clear, grayish, boring UI that just not hinder to get my job done... Amen! The UI in the screenshots looks very tasteful to me, and it's nice to see somebody not conflating “no-nonsense” with “ugly programmer art”. Looking forward to giving this a try.
- ttty 8y ago
  When I read your comment I thought is going to look clean and nice... Looks like win 98... Not at all tasteful to me
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    It's sort of retro, but it's very clean, at least IMO. What's your idea of a clean and nice UI?
    - wycy 8y ago
      Windows 10 with transparency turned off is very clean and usable. I know I'm going to get a lot of reflexive disagreement on this point for unrelated "because Windows" reasons, but I think this is objectively true. The entire UI is just basic shapes and line drawings.
      - giancarlostoro 8y ago
        Basically what Windows Server comes with iirc. I wish the "Pro" version of Windows 10 was just Windows Server, aka I don't care for a lot of the bloat that Microsoft has to offer to all consumer versions of Windows. If I'm a Pro user let me decide what I want to install.
      - omaranto 8y ago
        I agree, and it's not just the appearance, the UX is generally sensible (and little things like keyboard shortcuts for snapping a window to half the screen are very useful). I just wish it weren't so damn buggy. I just had to reinstall because Windows Update got stuck on an install/uninstall update loop. Sigh
rhabarba 8y ago
Being a happy Window Maker user, I like that I will have more choices in the future. Etoile seems dead.
fouc 8y ago
Thanks for the naming explanation linked in the readme. That almost seems like a case study to warn of the dangers of using case sensitivity to reference different things.
stesch 8y ago
When I switched from Amiga to Linux in 1995 I thought that I will have a perfect NeXTSTEP clone within a few months. I saw pictures of GNUStep and it looked nearly ready to go. Ha!
bitwize 8y ago
Fantastic. If I ever run a DE again, I'm running this.
bmn__ 8y ago
To save interested hackers the time: not a single configure script, makefile or specfile is in working condition.
- trunkmaster 8y ago
  Did you try to follow this https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-install https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-inst...?
purplezooey 8y ago
What about WindowMaker?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
hestefisk 8y ago
This reminds me of Afterstep.
ericfrederich 8y ago
CDE!
- LarryDarrell 8y ago
  I did so much work using CDE it's hard not to be nostalgic for it.
- nonamenoslogan 8y ago
  Hear hear, been my daily user environment since they open-sourced it what, 5 years ago?
towndrunk 8y ago
Is there instructions on how a newbie can install this?
- towndrunk 8y ago
  I found it... https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-install https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-inst...
justin_vanw 8y ago
So this is basically OSX but take away 30 years of human-computer interaction learnings and UI improvements.
- dmix 8y ago
  Considering I spend 99% of my time either in a terminal or a web browser, I don't think it will have too much of an affect, unless the UX of either of those two are diminished. For years I used a very barebones Linux desktop (a minimalist tiled VM) and was very happy and productive with it. The former is largely why. But I don't think the point was a 'better' desktop but an interesting or experimental one. Or simply just for fun. We can often relearn valuable things from the past by recreating them. It's usually not enough to just look at pictures of it or hear stories. Plus many "new" UX and software problems were dealt with in the past and reappear later with new platforms, hardware, and UI concepts which start over from scratch.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    > Considering I spend 99% of my time either in a terminal or a web browser, I don't think it will have too much of an affect Sure, for you, because apparently you just need a web kiosk and an ssh server. Some of us actually do want a personal desktop computer.
    - dmix 8y ago
      Yes, obviously it's just for a certain niche. Did you think the "Nextspace" linux desktop environment was for mainstream consumption?
  - nonamenoslogan 8y ago
    THIS. I'm using CDE on Linux (originally Debian but now Ubuntu) and do nearly everything in a Chrome or Console window. Everything works as expected and I like the old, flat, motif look.
orbitingpluto 8y ago
WindowMaker was a perfectly functional touch interface circa 2008 using VNC/SSH on a Nokia N810 tethered to a N95 with a slow 3G connection. It just worked. I miss that separation between the phone and the mobile platform.

280 points by valeg 8y ago

Huh, this is pretty cool, if anything as something to install in a VM and get a blast from the past

I haven't dug into the code, but how does this differ from GWorkspace and other GNUstep components (Prefs, Terminal, Login, et .)?

peatmoss 8y ago
I've not dug deeper than reading the page and looking at the screenshots, but it looks like he’s making some sane default choices such as to use WindowMaker for the dock rather than GWorkspace’s dock. And it appears he's working to put more and more into the Prefs app (rather than, for example, configuring WindowMaker through WindowMaker’s preference manager app). GNUStep already has quite a lot there for making a desktop. What it’s lacking is the implementation of the desktop. This, on the surface, appears to be an attempt to round that out.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  I'm not sure using WindowMaker is sane at all. WindowMaker is a completely isolated C implementation with its own GUI toolkit. It's not integrated at all with the rest of GNUStep. It only appears NeXT-like, it's a facade. GNUStep should ulimately replace it, if this is to be some kind of NeXTSTEP replica beyond skin-deep appearances.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Isn't GNUStep dead, stuck in some level of Panther compatibility?
  - peatmoss 8y ago
    That’s fair. He at least appears to have created a configuration app that is a integrated with prefs, which makes the alienness of WindowMaker less exposed. On the other hand the dock in GWorkspace is pretty non-functional by comparison.
  - trunkmaster 8y ago
    Workspace is a new application that contains WindowMaker. And it _is_ fully integrated with GNUstep applications. This is not a facade, this is how OPENSTEP feels. Just give it a try.

peterwwillis 8y ago

I really like WindowMaker and similar clones, but (warning: ranting) I partially abandoned it because of how absurd it is to try to run a Linux system without DBUS-native tooling, which mostly only exists in GUIs for specific window managers/docks. Unless you're using one of a few popular desktop environments, Linux is a shitshow of bad user interface (and even some of them like Ubuntu seem to lack functionality that used to exist). I'm probably moving to Windows soon just so I don't have to spend days to get an affordable machine from 2 years ago to achieve basic hardware functionality like "graphics" and "wifi".

michaelmrose 8y ago
It's incredibly easy to start whatever you want from any environment. Normally a wm will come with a way to start apps or run scripts you can start whatever tools you need there. Example gnome starts pulseaudio if you are run a minimal environment it probably does not depend on a particular sound daemon or have anything to do with sound so instead if you want pulse you simply run pulseaudio --start in your config. I've never had a problem with wifi drivers and Linux perhaps because I've always bought devices with good Linux support. Gpu similar. Used to be the rule was buy Nvidia install official drivers, no step 3. Now newer amd are supposed to be well supported with just open source drivers. Honestly before I buy hardware I search insert hardware +Linux and if I can't find anything or discover issues with no obvious solutions I buy something else and experience few problems.
eikenberry 8y ago
What do you miss without the DBUS-native tooling?
- adrianratnapala 8y ago
  DBus based tooling gives you ways with the sysadmin complexities introduced by the same brilliant minds that brought us systemd and pulseaudio.
  - filmor 8y ago

stevedekorte 8y ago

This is great. Nice work.

andrewstuart 8y ago

I loved NextSTEP so I bought a Mac, which IS NextSTEP, only better.

protomyth 8y ago
I miss the NeXTSTEP menus, that Mac toolbar is horrid on large monitors. Also, the Finder is a poor second compared to Workspace Manager. The lack of EOF and the Digital Librarian is painful.
- sgt 8y ago
  The Mac toolbar is thin and neat - not sure how that qualifies as "horrid"? I am using a 27" monitor.
  - protomyth 8y ago
    I have a 34” monitor, so scrolling up to the upper left every time I need to select a menu item is horrid. Plus, they got rid of the amazingly useful tear off menu customization. The Mac toolbar is a big step backwards.
    - sgt 8y ago
      Then just use CTRL-F2, it's a shortcut to select the menu item. Although with such a big monitor, I'd say the biggest challenge is to move your eyes all the way up to where the menu bar might be. Unless of course you're sitting 10 feet away.
      - protomyth 8y ago
        Ok, but missing the point if I have to use a keyboard to make it work better. The menu bar on the NeXT was a joy, obvious, and right next to where I was working.
- Bradlinc 8y ago
  I never used NeXTSTEP but I am always curious about what didn't make the transition to Mac OS X. Was the Digital Librarian different than Spotlight?

Fnoord 8y ago

On the bottom they mentioned [1] Etoile. [1] http://etoileos.com http://etoileos.com

IronBacon 8y ago
Thanks, I was trying to recall this one. Looks like it didn't gained traction tho.

peatmoss 8y ago

I imagine a world in which the F/OSS community chose to implement and innovate on GNUStep or some other OpenSTEP/NeXT/Cocoa compatible implementation. This project is exciting by way of providing a more complete nucleus of what that desktop might look like. The KDE/Gnome schism really divided the mindshare of the open *nix desktop. If we’d gone this route, I like to imagine the differences between Mac and Linux or BSD would be small enough that - Mac apps would be a recompile away from running on Linux And - Linux would be a viable developer environment to target macOS Apple’s commitment to the desktop has waned and caused some longtime users like me to go back to Linux/BSD. Meanwhile, desktop facilities on Linux/BSD have lacked coherence and singularity of vision. A viable, modern post-OpenSTEP Linux and BSD desktop would have the capacity to keep Apple honest, while giving the Free community a benchmark for consistency. I’d love to see something like this project blossom into a 3rd way GUI layer for Linux and BSD.

pjmlp 8y ago
Objective-C never had much love outside NeXT and this was even an issue for Apple, which offered Java support in the begging on parity with Objective-C while they weren't sure about the Mac OS developer's receptivity to it. They only dropped Java after being validated that Mac developer community was fine with Objective-C. Also lets not forget OS X could have been some evolution of BeOS and NeXT while innovative, wasn't going to last much longer alone on the workstation market.
- informatimago 8y ago
  May be it would have been more popular to make the bolder move of using Smalltalk. At least, this choice would have been more sustainable than Objective-C, which has to be replaced now by Swift. Swift is not bad, apart for the botched argument list syntax; do it smalltalk-like like in Objective-C or indeed Smalltalk, or do it algol-like, but this mix is ugly! Or of course, to just use Lisp, because let's remember that 95% of the success of NeXTstep was due to the Interface Builder which was just an Objective-C rewrite of a Lisp program!
  - 8y ago

Ezhik 8y ago

Oh how I'd love to have Quartz/Aqua/Finder on top of Linux.

htor 8y ago

beautiful. in a weird way it almost looks modern.

rogual 8y ago

> I intentionally left aside modern UI design trends (fancy animations, shadows, gray blurry lines, flat controls, acid colours, transparency). I like this accurate, clear, grayish, boring UI that just not hinder to get my job done... Amen! The UI in the screenshots looks very tasteful to me, and it's nice to see somebody not conflating “no-nonsense” with “ugly programmer art”. Looking forward to giving this a try.

ttty 8y ago
When I read your comment I thought is going to look clean and nice... Looks like win 98... Not at all tasteful to me
- TomMarius 8y ago
  It's sort of retro, but it's very clean, at least IMO. What's your idea of a clean and nice UI?
  - wycy 8y ago
    Windows 10 with transparency turned off is very clean and usable. I know I'm going to get a lot of reflexive disagreement on this point for unrelated "because Windows" reasons, but I think this is objectively true. The entire UI is just basic shapes and line drawings.
    - giancarlostoro 8y ago
      Basically what Windows Server comes with iirc. I wish the "Pro" version of Windows 10 was just Windows Server, aka I don't care for a lot of the bloat that Microsoft has to offer to all consumer versions of Windows. If I'm a Pro user let me decide what I want to install.
    - omaranto 8y ago
      I agree, and it's not just the appearance, the UX is generally sensible (and little things like keyboard shortcuts for snapping a window to half the screen are very useful). I just wish it weren't so damn buggy. I just had to reinstall because Windows Update got stuck on an install/uninstall update loop. Sigh

rhabarba 8y ago

Being a happy Window Maker user, I like that I will have more choices in the future. Etoile seems dead.

fouc 8y ago

Thanks for the naming explanation linked in the readme. That almost seems like a case study to warn of the dangers of using case sensitivity to reference different things.

stesch 8y ago

When I switched from Amiga to Linux in 1995 I thought that I will have a perfect NeXTSTEP clone within a few months. I saw pictures of GNUStep and it looked nearly ready to go. Ha!

bitwize 8y ago

Fantastic. If I ever run a DE again, I'm running this.

bmn__ 8y ago

To save interested hackers the time: not a single configure script, makefile or specfile is in working condition.

trunkmaster 8y ago
Did you try to follow this https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-install https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-inst...?

purplezooey 8y ago

What about WindowMaker?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

hestefisk 8y ago

This reminds me of Afterstep.

ericfrederich 8y ago

CDE!

LarryDarrell 8y ago
I did so much work using CDE it's hard not to be nostalgic for it.
nonamenoslogan 8y ago
Hear hear, been my daily user environment since they open-sourced it what, 5 years ago?

towndrunk 8y ago

Is there instructions on how a newbie can install this?

towndrunk 8y ago
I found it... https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-install https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-inst...

justin_vanw 8y ago

So this is basically OSX but take away 30 years of human-computer interaction learnings and UI improvements.

dmix 8y ago
Considering I spend 99% of my time either in a terminal or a web browser, I don't think it will have too much of an affect, unless the UX of either of those two are diminished. For years I used a very barebones Linux desktop (a minimalist tiled VM) and was very happy and productive with it. The former is largely why. But I don't think the point was a 'better' desktop but an interesting or experimental one. Or simply just for fun. We can often relearn valuable things from the past by recreating them. It's usually not enough to just look at pictures of it or hear stories. Plus many "new" UX and software problems were dealt with in the past and reappear later with new platforms, hardware, and UI concepts which start over from scratch.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  > Considering I spend 99% of my time either in a terminal or a web browser, I don't think it will have too much of an affect Sure, for you, because apparently you just need a web kiosk and an ssh server. Some of us actually do want a personal desktop computer.
  - dmix 8y ago
    Yes, obviously it's just for a certain niche. Did you think the "Nextspace" linux desktop environment was for mainstream consumption?
- nonamenoslogan 8y ago
  THIS. I'm using CDE on Linux (originally Debian but now Ubuntu) and do nearly everything in a Chrome or Console window. Everything works as expected and I like the old, flat, motif look.

orbitingpluto 8y ago

WindowMaker was a perfectly functional touch interface circa 2008 using VNC/SSH on a Nokia N810 tethered to a N95 with a slow 3G connection. It just worked. I miss that separation between the phone and the mobile platform.