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> If you want to argue about the level of taxation, the right size of government, regulations on business, whether public or private is the most efficient way t

> If you want to argue about the level of taxation, the right size of government, regulations on business, whether public or private is the most efficient way to accomplish a goal, or myriad other areas of policy like those, go right ahead. You list a bunch of self-approved topics that you believe are okay to talk about. How about arguing for stricter immigration laws, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, skepticism on transgender orthodoxy, skepticism about the existence of a female wage gap, anti affirmative action, anti gun control, climate change skepticism etc. Are those not okay? These are common political opinions that are routinely twisted into "questioning other's right to exist", or denial of basic human rights/decency, or sexist/racist, while they are usually no such thing. Even partial disagreement and skepticism is often elevated to that level. This is the real abuse and weaponization here. I think you'd need to look long and hard to find anyone in open source projects seriously advocating for some group to be wiped off the face of the earth. Yet these topics are likely to make some uncomfortable, or depending on the person, even unwelcome. So are they verboten? Remember this CoC explicitly states it applies both inside and outside project spaces. Ask Brendan Eich how that turned out. The problem, put simply, is that very often people will take someone's political opinion, even nuanced disagreement, as a personal attack, regardless of the actual interpersonal relationship. This is why either "political opinion" needs to be protected, or the whole thing scrapped. IMO preferably the latter, then we can once again realize that everybody has opinions that others might consider outrageously wrong and stupid, but can still work together/be friends as long as people are not actively dicks to each other.

JoshTriplett 8y ago
> anti-gay marriage, skepticism on transgender orthodoxy > routinely twisted into "questioning other's right to exist", or denial of basic human rights/decency, or sexist/racist Interesting list. Doesn't take much twisting. You're providing a good demonstration of the point here. You don't get to feel comfortable advocating those things, at the expense of the people who live those things. Your comfort, versus their lives. (Forestalling the obvious response: yes, I did intentionally select the most problematic points you raised to respond to, because they demonstrate the primary problem with attempting to protect "political opinion" in a code of conduct.) > So are they verboten? Remember this CoC explicitly states it applies both inside and outside project spaces. Inside a project they're almost universally off-topic. In the rare cases where they're not, it's often because a project actually intersects with such issues, such as needing to handle personal data or similar. As for outside a project, the topics you listed vary greatly. I seriously doubt you'd find anyone's role in a project at risk because of their thoughts on climate change. On the other hand, if you actively campaign against other people's rights, you may well find that people don't want to work with you. > I think you'd need to look long and hard to find anyone in open source projects seriously advocating for some group to be wiped off the face of the earth. Not particularly long nor hard, no; I run into them regularly. > This is why either "political opinion" needs to be protected, or the whole thing scrapped. Even leaving aside whether there's any problem here at all, since when have the choices been "perfect solution or no solution"? If you've got a limited amount of water you start by using it on the houses that are on fire, not the ones who want their grass watered.
- furgooswft13 8y ago
  See, you saw "anti-gay marriage, skepticism on transgender orthodoxy" and instantly took it to "an attack on people's rights and lives". Almost no one is saying gay and trans people should not have rights, or lives. They are saying things such as: "I don't believe it is ethical to give emotional children hormonal blockers and encourage eventual gender reassignment" or "I think made-up pronouns are stupid" or "I believe gay people should not be able to marry but get legally equivalent civil-unions". Should people not be able to feel comfortable discussing such opinions outside of work or project spaces? I'd also like to point out that being against gay marriage is extremely common among devotes of the Abrahamic religions, which is a category that appears in the "protected list". Opinions such as those have already been used to try to oust (not sure how it turned out) a member of at least one open source project (Opalgate, no CoC needed ironically) speaking entirely unrelated to the project. He was not directly maligning anyone from the project itself, in fact an outsider had to come in to stir drama (and that outsider happened to be the author of the Contributor Covenant. Hmm...). What people do on their own time that does not personally affect you is their own business. Remember that principle is how gay rights came to be accepted in the first place. And no I don't need a link to the Paradox of Tolerance. > I seriously doubt you'd find anyone's role in a project at risk because of their thoughts on climate change. I would not be so sure. As before, often any skepticism of prevailing climate change wisdom is instantly escalated to "science denial". Not a good label to have in a tech project, and besides you'd be advocating for "crippling temperature rises, mass natural disasters, entire cities wiped away by see-level rises, destroying the planet basically". That sounds kinda life changing, if you believe it. > Not particularly long nor hard, no; I run into them regularly. Would be really interested to see some examples of this. Not just random twitter twattery, but people actually involved in OSS projects, literally advocating genocide. > Even leaving aside whether there's any problem here at all, since when have the choices been "perfect solution or no solution"? Well you said it yourself, there's no problem, thus no need for a solution. The Contributor Covenant is a solution in search of a problem. Are there any examples of the Linux kernel project being bogged down by external social politics (not that this CoC would fix that, much the opposite), or excessive trolling? Far as I can tell the problem was Linus's own abrasive attitude. And let me tell you, he's hardly alone with that attribute. There's plenty of people out there who are difficult to work with because they are full of themselves and have little tolerance for dissent. At least Linus was upfront about this, rather then preferring to feign politeness then stab you in the back via bureaucratic bullshit, kinda like this CoC encourages.

JoshTriplett 8y ago

> anti-gay marriage, skepticism on transgender orthodoxy > routinely twisted into "questioning other's right to exist", or denial of basic human rights/decency, or sexist/racist Interesting list. Doesn't take much twisting. You're providing a good demonstration of the point here. You don't get to feel comfortable advocating those things, at the expense of the people who live those things. Your comfort, versus their lives. (Forestalling the obvious response: yes, I did intentionally select the most problematic points you raised to respond to, because they demonstrate the primary problem with attempting to protect "political opinion" in a code of conduct.) > So are they verboten? Remember this CoC explicitly states it applies both inside and outside project spaces. Inside a project they're almost universally off-topic. In the rare cases where they're not, it's often because a project actually intersects with such issues, such as needing to handle personal data or similar. As for outside a project, the topics you listed vary greatly. I seriously doubt you'd find anyone's role in a project at risk because of their thoughts on climate change. On the other hand, if you actively campaign against other people's rights, you may well find that people don't want to work with you. > I think you'd need to look long and hard to find anyone in open source projects seriously advocating for some group to be wiped off the face of the earth. Not particularly long nor hard, no; I run into them regularly. > This is why either "political opinion" needs to be protected, or the whole thing scrapped. Even leaving aside whether there's any problem here at all, since when have the choices been "perfect solution or no solution"? If you've got a limited amount of water you start by using it on the houses that are on fire, not the ones who want their grass watered.

furgooswft13 8y ago
See, you saw "anti-gay marriage, skepticism on transgender orthodoxy" and instantly took it to "an attack on people's rights and lives". Almost no one is saying gay and trans people should not have rights, or lives. They are saying things such as: "I don't believe it is ethical to give emotional children hormonal blockers and encourage eventual gender reassignment" or "I think made-up pronouns are stupid" or "I believe gay people should not be able to marry but get legally equivalent civil-unions". Should people not be able to feel comfortable discussing such opinions outside of work or project spaces? I'd also like to point out that being against gay marriage is extremely common among devotes of the Abrahamic religions, which is a category that appears in the "protected list". Opinions such as those have already been used to try to oust (not sure how it turned out) a member of at least one open source project (Opalgate, no CoC needed ironically) speaking entirely unrelated to the project. He was not directly maligning anyone from the project itself, in fact an outsider had to come in to stir drama (and that outsider happened to be the author of the Contributor Covenant. Hmm...). What people do on their own time that does not personally affect you is their own business. Remember that principle is how gay rights came to be accepted in the first place. And no I don't need a link to the Paradox of Tolerance. > I seriously doubt you'd find anyone's role in a project at risk because of their thoughts on climate change. I would not be so sure. As before, often any skepticism of prevailing climate change wisdom is instantly escalated to "science denial". Not a good label to have in a tech project, and besides you'd be advocating for "crippling temperature rises, mass natural disasters, entire cities wiped away by see-level rises, destroying the planet basically". That sounds kinda life changing, if you believe it. > Not particularly long nor hard, no; I run into them regularly. Would be really interested to see some examples of this. Not just random twitter twattery, but people actually involved in OSS projects, literally advocating genocide. > Even leaving aside whether there's any problem here at all, since when have the choices been "perfect solution or no solution"? Well you said it yourself, there's no problem, thus no need for a solution. The Contributor Covenant is a solution in search of a problem. Are there any examples of the Linux kernel project being bogged down by external social politics (not that this CoC would fix that, much the opposite), or excessive trolling? Far as I can tell the problem was Linus's own abrasive attitude. And let me tell you, he's hardly alone with that attribute. There's plenty of people out there who are difficult to work with because they are full of themselves and have little tolerance for dissent. At least Linus was upfront about this, rather then preferring to feign politeness then stab you in the back via bureaucratic bullshit, kinda like this CoC encourages.