6 ms·

> Note length, tempo, velocity, progression and other stuff are minor worries in comparison. Those things can be felt, without learning. Can it? How do you lea

by jlg23 8y ago

> Note length, tempo, velocity, progression and other stuff are minor worries in comparison. Those things can be felt, without learning. Can it? How do you learn a piece for which you only have a sheet? I would go even further and say that the most I learned about music was from handwritten notes on musicians or conductors[1] sheets. Yes, I can figure out a lot myself just because of my background knowledge but give me something of an obscure era/modernist fashion and I am completely lost. Furthermore, I played the flute, so tempo, for example, dictates how to start a note (lacking the English term here) because there is a huge difference of what I can do to a single note when played larghissimo in contrast to prestissimo. And especially with lots of modern music, composers resort to their own, additional notation because classical notation is not enough to express the music on paper.

hashkb 8y ago
I was going to attack the same line you quoted. That word you are looking for is "articulation" and of course it's part of traditional notation as is everything else, which is the point you are making. Every second spent on this type of project should be spent practicing. Music notation is hard because theory is complicated and performance is nuanced. People won't admit it... but we're all looking for shortcuts. Learn music the hard way. Or just be an amateur, but don't try to reinvent the kick-ass wheel we've been using for millennia.
- thebricksta 8y ago
  But is it a kick ass wheel? Imagine if the only programming language available was C and all you wanted to be was an amateur script kiddie. It is nice to have beginner friendly languages we can start people off in, allow them to build real solutions in, but then slowly shift them out of into more nuanced code once they are ready. Tab solves part of that problem for entry level guitarists, but there is a bit of a void in the staff. I'm not saying that I don't like the staff - as someone who is literate, I agree, it works. I'm just saying that a simpler notation with a smoother learning curve might serve as an easier entry point for beginners who can make the jump to the full-on staff when they are ready. (I'm not saying I like OP's project either, I think that's missed the mark too.)
jgibson 8y ago
> dictates how to start a note (lacking the English term here) Intonation perhaps? I often used the word "attack" to indicate the style of start of the note when I used to play flute, but I'd say thats far from proper terminology
- escherplex 8y ago
  Try embouchure - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embouchure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embouchure
  - shhsshs 8y ago
    I think articulation would be the word here
    - escherplex 8y ago
      True. embouchure is more mechanics. If you wanted to sound pedantic you probably could use the Italian accentuazione :-)
wildrhythms 8y ago
I'm also curious about the lack of rests. I seem to recall a friend of mine having a single note on their three pages of music, everything else was rests... it was a crash cymbal part. How would the crash cymbal player know where to play given this new notation?
probably_wrong 8y ago
> Can it? How do you learn a piece for which you only have a sheet? To be fair, guitar players seem to manage. I truly cannot understand how, though. Most guitar tabs are oddly silent on the topic of what to do with your right hand, and yet everyone uses them.
- zeroxfe 8y ago
  This is because tablature is not meant to be sight-read. It's typically used to learn music that you've already heard. (Note that there are a few tab formats that have rhythmic elements in them, but they're not very comprehensive.)
- hashkb 8y ago
  Tab is a leaky abstraction and cannot be sight read. It exists because guitarists are notoriously lazy and/or because guitar is easy. That there is no piano tab, and that nearly all pianists become literate should be telling.
  - retsibsi 8y ago
    > guitar is easy Is it? I'm musically stupid, so the fact that guitar is hard for me doesn't mean much. But isn't it truer and more relevant that guitar is a popular instrument for amateur and casual players, because a) it has a big role in popular music, and b) it's accessible, in the sense that guitars can be cheap and they don't require a lot of space? There are plenty of relatively easy guitar pieces (especially if you're satisfied with using the instrument as an accompaniment to singing, or playing single-note melodies as part of a band), but that's obviously true of the piano too, and likewise both instruments have plenty of complex and technically demanding pieces. I'm genuinely interested in being corrected, but as far as I can tell the physical technique is at least as hard, and the possible musical complexity is no different. Is there any sense in which the guitar is actually 'easier' than the piano?
    - hashkb 8y ago
      You're probably right about physical technique. As a lifetime guitarist, I'm certainly not going to disagree. But we're talking about notation. Guitarists avoid learning it (and invent crap like tab) because of the many true things people say below my original comment.
andrewflnr 8y ago
I suspect this is simply not intended for learning pieces you haven't heard at least a couple times. This seems like the kind of thing you use if you just want to be able to play something you heard on the radio, maybe add some improv.
soundwave106 8y ago
Most music outside of the Western classical realm has heavier reliance on improvisation. Music notation there is often simplified as a result. "Chord charts" or "lead sheets" are common in jazz where only the melody is notated in standard Western notation, together with the lyrics and the chords, with the arranger or players responsible for the rest. Pop musicians sometimes just get by with Roman numeral chords over lyrics if it's a song they've heard before that they are covering. From my perspective, excluding length and rests is problematic for this notation, though. Even lead sheets had these. Rhythm is such a huge part of music. This would be a difficult system to convey even a simple melody line to a musician unless the person also hears the song. (If this is intended to be more like tablature where this is typically what happens, then yes, it's fine.)

by jlg23 8y ago

hashkb 8y ago

I was going to attack the same line you quoted. That word you are looking for is "articulation" and of course it's part of traditional notation as is everything else, which is the point you are making. Every second spent on this type of project should be spent practicing. Music notation is hard because theory is complicated and performance is nuanced. People won't admit it... but we're all looking for shortcuts. Learn music the hard way. Or just be an amateur, but don't try to reinvent the kick-ass wheel we've been using for millennia.

thebricksta 8y ago
But is it a kick ass wheel? Imagine if the only programming language available was C and all you wanted to be was an amateur script kiddie. It is nice to have beginner friendly languages we can start people off in, allow them to build real solutions in, but then slowly shift them out of into more nuanced code once they are ready. Tab solves part of that problem for entry level guitarists, but there is a bit of a void in the staff. I'm not saying that I don't like the staff - as someone who is literate, I agree, it works. I'm just saying that a simpler notation with a smoother learning curve might serve as an easier entry point for beginners who can make the jump to the full-on staff when they are ready. (I'm not saying I like OP's project either, I think that's missed the mark too.)

jgibson 8y ago

> dictates how to start a note (lacking the English term here) Intonation perhaps? I often used the word "attack" to indicate the style of start of the note when I used to play flute, but I'd say thats far from proper terminology

escherplex 8y ago
Try embouchure - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embouchure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embouchure
- shhsshs 8y ago
  I think articulation would be the word here
  - escherplex 8y ago
    True. embouchure is more mechanics. If you wanted to sound pedantic you probably could use the Italian accentuazione :-)

wildrhythms 8y ago

I'm also curious about the lack of rests. I seem to recall a friend of mine having a single note on their three pages of music, everything else was rests... it was a crash cymbal part. How would the crash cymbal player know where to play given this new notation?

probably_wrong 8y ago

> Can it? How do you learn a piece for which you only have a sheet? To be fair, guitar players seem to manage. I truly cannot understand how, though. Most guitar tabs are oddly silent on the topic of what to do with your right hand, and yet everyone uses them.

zeroxfe 8y ago
This is because tablature is not meant to be sight-read. It's typically used to learn music that you've already heard. (Note that there are a few tab formats that have rhythmic elements in them, but they're not very comprehensive.)
hashkb 8y ago
Tab is a leaky abstraction and cannot be sight read. It exists because guitarists are notoriously lazy and/or because guitar is easy. That there is no piano tab, and that nearly all pianists become literate should be telling.
- retsibsi 8y ago
  > guitar is easy Is it? I'm musically stupid, so the fact that guitar is hard for me doesn't mean much. But isn't it truer and more relevant that guitar is a popular instrument for amateur and casual players, because a) it has a big role in popular music, and b) it's accessible, in the sense that guitars can be cheap and they don't require a lot of space? There are plenty of relatively easy guitar pieces (especially if you're satisfied with using the instrument as an accompaniment to singing, or playing single-note melodies as part of a band), but that's obviously true of the piano too, and likewise both instruments have plenty of complex and technically demanding pieces. I'm genuinely interested in being corrected, but as far as I can tell the physical technique is at least as hard, and the possible musical complexity is no different. Is there any sense in which the guitar is actually 'easier' than the piano?
  - hashkb 8y ago
    You're probably right about physical technique. As a lifetime guitarist, I'm certainly not going to disagree. But we're talking about notation. Guitarists avoid learning it (and invent crap like tab) because of the many true things people say below my original comment.

andrewflnr 8y ago

I suspect this is simply not intended for learning pieces you haven't heard at least a couple times. This seems like the kind of thing you use if you just want to be able to play something you heard on the radio, maybe add some improv.

soundwave106 8y ago

Most music outside of the Western classical realm has heavier reliance on improvisation. Music notation there is often simplified as a result. "Chord charts" or "lead sheets" are common in jazz where only the melody is notated in standard Western notation, together with the lyrics and the chords, with the arranger or players responsible for the rest. Pop musicians sometimes just get by with Roman numeral chords over lyrics if it's a song they've heard before that they are covering. From my perspective, excluding length and rests is problematic for this notation, though. Even lead sheets had these. Rhythm is such a huge part of music. This would be a difficult system to convey even a simple melody line to a musician unless the person also hears the song. (If this is intended to be more like tablature where this is typically what happens, then yes, it's fine.)