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Same. Linus always called a spade a spade, and I always respected that. In a culture where the Overton window has shrunk considerably and people habitually hide

Same. Linus always called a spade a spade, and I always respected that. In a culture where the Overton window has shrunk considerably and people habitually hide their thoughts, I think this kind of attitude is more important, not less. People give up ability to say certain things in the name of inclusion, and then lose ability to think those things in the first place. I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day, and most of us are pushovers.

grzm 8y ago
> ”I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day“ This is a false dichotomy. There’s no need to be an asshole to not be a pushover.
- tomp 8y ago
  It's not even a dichotomy. The poster is just saying which one out of two negative situations s/he prefers.
  - grzm 8y ago
    It’s a straw man meant to excuse bad behavior as the only way to provide strong direction. Pushovers are not the under discussion here: Torvalds’ behavior is.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      Or perhaps an acknowledgement that people are imperfect and the world is imperfect and, if you want to accomplish things, x all-too-common defect is preferable to y all-too-common defect.
      - grzm 8y ago
        In other contexts, perhaps. I don’t read the comment I initially replied to as supporting that interpretation, even reading charitably. They explicitly separate people into (primarily) two groups: "I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day, and most of us are pushovers."
        DoreenMichele 8y ago
        Well, that's exactly what I see in the comment in question.
        staticassertion 8y ago
        They very clearly are setting up a false dichotomy. They support one side by stating that it is preferable to the other (when there are no sides to begin with). You have to be willfully ignorant to read it otherwise. As blatant support of this, "People give up ability to say certain things in the name of inclusion, and then lose ability to think those things in the first place." This is a clear testament that there are two sides and you must 'give up' something (ie: become a pushover) to not be an asshole.
        DoreenMichele 8y ago
        You have to be willfully ignorant to read it otherwise. This is a personal insult. Ironic given what you are arguing "for" in theory.
      - komali2 8y ago
        I disagree that that level of asshole behavior is all-too-common. I've never encountered anybody like Linus professionally and if I did I simply wouldn't work with/for/over them.
        DoreenMichele 8y ago
        Well, that looks to me like moving the goal posts. Saying "that level of asshole behavior" isn't common is fundamentally different from what I said.
        icelancer 8y ago
        Fortunately, plenty of other people managed to do so.
- coffeemug 8y ago
  Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing they want to be saying at all. Have you been to a corporate meeting? It feels like soul death for precisely this reason -- nobody is saying the thing they want to be saying at all. Tech/open-source was one of very few domains where people did say the thing they wanted to say. The culture selected for people who want to interact that way, and then encouraged that form of interaction. Now that's dead. Codes of conduct, inclusion, and caring about people's feelings are lofty ideals, but if people can't say "it's a stupid idea" when they think "it's a stupid idea" the whole thing will disintegrate into a dilbertesque nightmare along with the rest of the corporate America.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    "Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best." That's Robert A. Heinlein, hardly known for being a social justice activist.
    - coffeemug 8y ago
      There are different ways to oil the machine, I'm not throwing out the baby along with the bathwater in naivete. Lots of cultures encouraged being direct, were insanely productive, and oiled the gears in a different way. The current cultural trend is just fashion, it will pass, but things will get worse before they get better.
      - int_19h 8y ago
        And once again, being direct is orthogonal to being polite.
CoryShmallager 8y ago
>In a culture where the Overton window has shrunk considerably How do you figure? Genuinely curious. I think you have to take into account where in the world you're talking about. Perhaps in metropolitan parts of the world this is true, but for other large swaths of the world, especially in politics not just individuals, the opposite is happening with authoritarianism prevailing. It's a pretty stark contrast between cultural mores these days.
- darkengine 8y ago
  When authoritarianism is prevailing, the shrinking of the Overton window is, to my mind, exactly what one would expect.
  - CoryShmallager 8y ago
    It seems like no matter what wing of the spectrum both sides are shrinking their windows and growing in reactionary frustrations.
lgleason 8y ago
Reality is more important than one's feelings which is why he has been effective in making linux what it is today. Throwing that out the window and caving to the postmodernist "feels" will not bode well for the project as a whole... and in the end the activists will try to find another reason to push him out of the project he founded even if he completely capitulates to them.
- FuckOffNeemo 8y ago
  From one person embedded in 'reality' to another. There's a fine line between striding for truth and being a dickhead. Linux consistently leaches across to the latter while occasionally being the former. Fortunately he's realised this now and not later and chosen to work on himself to better his community. Unlike you. And your 'feels'.
FuckOffNeemo 8y ago
"A man who says a spade is a spade is only fit to wield one" - I can't recall who this quote is from but it had a profound impact on my how I conduct myself. Or: "A hammer is no more or less honest than a scalpel." I had the same sense of reality as Linus is having now, fortunately I was only 26 when it was brought to my attention. Previously I took pride in calling a spade a spade. I was abrupt, people actually praised me in this behavior before I realised it was holding me back. To be specific, some close friends who were in Senior positions to me gave me a reality check. My behavior was not genetic, it was nurture and not nature. The Finish brash is not too far from the Northern English brashness. I've had my ego checked on a few occasions and I've changed my tact accordingly when I realised it wasn't a win/lose or a zero sum game. It's about working together. I shouldn't escalate to a combative state so eagerly. The above quote resonated with me when it highlighted I need to better at communicating. 'Disagree and commit' is one such method that I've been trying to practice. Anothe I'm glad he's been given a reality check, though I hope it doesn't take anything away from his matter of fact way of speaking. He doesn't need to sink to ab hominem based attacks to get his point accross.
- coffeemug 8y ago
  If calling a spade a spade is defined as being an asshole for the enjoyment of being an asshole, then I agree with you. If that's what you were doing, then good on you for growing out of it (seriously!) The flipside of being too diplomatic is that everything shifts too slowly for people to notice, and by the time they have noticed they're boiled like a frog. That's why SF police basically doesn't work at all, there are tent cities and needles on the streets, and a tiny bedroom costs $2k/mo. That's why everyone is using Jira and nobody likes it. That's why 90% of corporate meetings are a complete waste of time. Small diplomatic concessions compound and lead to equilibrium traps where it's no longer possible to say "enough is enough". There are plenty of situations where being an asshole is much, much better than the alternative.
  - FuckOffNeemo 8y ago
    I don't enjoy being an arsehole. No, that's not entirely true. Sometimes I do. I take pride in my work, I take pride in where I've come. If some one comes out and says something that's so moronic that it makes me cringe, I consider it my civil and/or professional duty to bring this around. How I bring this around depends on many factors. I replied to one of your other comments about an 'Architect' who claimed AWS was single site. Those type of comments... I will never harbor. This particular gentlemen needs euthanising and forced into retirement. He and his cronies will single handedly destroy the company I left but, after 4.5 of years of fighting them. I gave up and quit. I can't fix stupid. And his bosses couldn't see through their bullshit. My mental health deserves better. I'd consider those arguments described above and opinions like that to be up there with fucking anti-vaccers and (I hate to say it... contentiously) global-warming deniers. But there's a nuance there. I can't go around talking to people like they don't know what they're talking about all of the time. I could be wrong. I have been. Even when I was absolutely certain I was correct. Even if it's not that binary and there's something in the grey between what they're saying and I'm saying. You can be delicate sometimes. Sometimes you need to be. Sometimes you need to be a hammer and destroy some one with words. Sometimes you need to be a feather duster. Or a scalpel. And sometimes you need to shut the fuck up and quit. Edit: I'm speaking here amongst like minded people and the comment about euthanasia was entirely sarcastic for the sake of humour. In the context of this conversation I'd never say this to anyone. I however, did quote Full Metal Jacket ("What is your major malfunction, numbnuts?") and expresses my shock and embarrassment that we both represent the same company. It's evident I'm still figuring out the syntax around the word 'tact'.

grzm 8y ago

> ”I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day“ This is a false dichotomy. There’s no need to be an asshole to not be a pushover.

tomp 8y ago
It's not even a dichotomy. The poster is just saying which one out of two negative situations s/he prefers.
- grzm 8y ago
  It’s a straw man meant to excuse bad behavior as the only way to provide strong direction. Pushovers are not the under discussion here: Torvalds’ behavior is.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Or perhaps an acknowledgement that people are imperfect and the world is imperfect and, if you want to accomplish things, x all-too-common defect is preferable to y all-too-common defect.
    - grzm 8y ago
      In other contexts, perhaps. I don’t read the comment I initially replied to as supporting that interpretation, even reading charitably. They explicitly separate people into (primarily) two groups: "I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day, and most of us are pushovers."
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        Well, that's exactly what I see in the comment in question.
        staticassertion 8y ago
        They very clearly are setting up a false dichotomy. They support one side by stating that it is preferable to the other (when there are no sides to begin with). You have to be willfully ignorant to read it otherwise. As blatant support of this, "People give up ability to say certain things in the name of inclusion, and then lose ability to think those things in the first place." This is a clear testament that there are two sides and you must 'give up' something (ie: become a pushover) to not be an asshole.
        DoreenMichele 8y ago
        You have to be willfully ignorant to read it otherwise. This is a personal insult. Ironic given what you are arguing "for" in theory.
    - komali2 8y ago
      I disagree that that level of asshole behavior is all-too-common. I've never encountered anybody like Linus professionally and if I did I simply wouldn't work with/for/over them.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        Well, that looks to me like moving the goal posts. Saying "that level of asshole behavior" isn't common is fundamentally different from what I said.
      - icelancer 8y ago
        Fortunately, plenty of other people managed to do so.
coffeemug 8y ago
Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing they want to be saying at all. Have you been to a corporate meeting? It feels like soul death for precisely this reason -- nobody is saying the thing they want to be saying at all. Tech/open-source was one of very few domains where people did say the thing they wanted to say. The culture selected for people who want to interact that way, and then encouraged that form of interaction. Now that's dead. Codes of conduct, inclusion, and caring about people's feelings are lofty ideals, but if people can't say "it's a stupid idea" when they think "it's a stupid idea" the whole thing will disintegrate into a dilbertesque nightmare along with the rest of the corporate America.
- int_19h 8y ago
  "Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best." That's Robert A. Heinlein, hardly known for being a social justice activist.
  - coffeemug 8y ago
    There are different ways to oil the machine, I'm not throwing out the baby along with the bathwater in naivete. Lots of cultures encouraged being direct, were insanely productive, and oiled the gears in a different way. The current cultural trend is just fashion, it will pass, but things will get worse before they get better.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      And once again, being direct is orthogonal to being polite.

CoryShmallager 8y ago

>In a culture where the Overton window has shrunk considerably How do you figure? Genuinely curious. I think you have to take into account where in the world you're talking about. Perhaps in metropolitan parts of the world this is true, but for other large swaths of the world, especially in politics not just individuals, the opposite is happening with authoritarianism prevailing. It's a pretty stark contrast between cultural mores these days.

darkengine 8y ago
When authoritarianism is prevailing, the shrinking of the Overton window is, to my mind, exactly what one would expect.
- CoryShmallager 8y ago
  It seems like no matter what wing of the spectrum both sides are shrinking their windows and growing in reactionary frustrations.

lgleason 8y ago

Reality is more important than one's feelings which is why he has been effective in making linux what it is today. Throwing that out the window and caving to the postmodernist "feels" will not bode well for the project as a whole... and in the end the activists will try to find another reason to push him out of the project he founded even if he completely capitulates to them.

FuckOffNeemo 8y ago
From one person embedded in 'reality' to another. There's a fine line between striding for truth and being a dickhead. Linux consistently leaches across to the latter while occasionally being the former. Fortunately he's realised this now and not later and chosen to work on himself to better his community. Unlike you. And your 'feels'.

FuckOffNeemo 8y ago

"A man who says a spade is a spade is only fit to wield one" - I can't recall who this quote is from but it had a profound impact on my how I conduct myself. Or: "A hammer is no more or less honest than a scalpel." I had the same sense of reality as Linus is having now, fortunately I was only 26 when it was brought to my attention. Previously I took pride in calling a spade a spade. I was abrupt, people actually praised me in this behavior before I realised it was holding me back. To be specific, some close friends who were in Senior positions to me gave me a reality check. My behavior was not genetic, it was nurture and not nature. The Finish brash is not too far from the Northern English brashness. I've had my ego checked on a few occasions and I've changed my tact accordingly when I realised it wasn't a win/lose or a zero sum game. It's about working together. I shouldn't escalate to a combative state so eagerly. The above quote resonated with me when it highlighted I need to better at communicating. 'Disagree and commit' is one such method that I've been trying to practice. Anothe I'm glad he's been given a reality check, though I hope it doesn't take anything away from his matter of fact way of speaking. He doesn't need to sink to ab hominem based attacks to get his point accross.

coffeemug 8y ago
If calling a spade a spade is defined as being an asshole for the enjoyment of being an asshole, then I agree with you. If that's what you were doing, then good on you for growing out of it (seriously!) The flipside of being too diplomatic is that everything shifts too slowly for people to notice, and by the time they have noticed they're boiled like a frog. That's why SF police basically doesn't work at all, there are tent cities and needles on the streets, and a tiny bedroom costs $2k/mo. That's why everyone is using Jira and nobody likes it. That's why 90% of corporate meetings are a complete waste of time. Small diplomatic concessions compound and lead to equilibrium traps where it's no longer possible to say "enough is enough". There are plenty of situations where being an asshole is much, much better than the alternative.
- FuckOffNeemo 8y ago
  I don't enjoy being an arsehole. No, that's not entirely true. Sometimes I do. I take pride in my work, I take pride in where I've come. If some one comes out and says something that's so moronic that it makes me cringe, I consider it my civil and/or professional duty to bring this around. How I bring this around depends on many factors. I replied to one of your other comments about an 'Architect' who claimed AWS was single site. Those type of comments... I will never harbor. This particular gentlemen needs euthanising and forced into retirement. He and his cronies will single handedly destroy the company I left but, after 4.5 of years of fighting them. I gave up and quit. I can't fix stupid. And his bosses couldn't see through their bullshit. My mental health deserves better. I'd consider those arguments described above and opinions like that to be up there with fucking anti-vaccers and (I hate to say it... contentiously) global-warming deniers. But there's a nuance there. I can't go around talking to people like they don't know what they're talking about all of the time. I could be wrong. I have been. Even when I was absolutely certain I was correct. Even if it's not that binary and there's something in the grey between what they're saying and I'm saying. You can be delicate sometimes. Sometimes you need to be. Sometimes you need to be a hammer and destroy some one with words. Sometimes you need to be a feather duster. Or a scalpel. And sometimes you need to shut the fuck up and quit. Edit: I'm speaking here amongst like minded people and the comment about euthanasia was entirely sarcastic for the sake of humour. In the context of this conversation I'd never say this to anyone. I however, did quote Full Metal Jacket ("What is your major malfunction, numbnuts?") and expresses my shock and embarrassment that we both represent the same company. It's evident I'm still figuring out the syntax around the word 'tact'.