14 ms·

Way to go Linus... this is a great lesson for all of us! It's easy to get caught-up in the heat of the moment and say and do things that we regret. We've all d

by w8rbt 8y ago

Way to go Linus... this is a great lesson for all of us! It's easy to get caught-up in the heat of the moment and say and do things that we regret. We've all done it. It's part of being human. The key is to realize it, apologize and do better.

onurcel 8y ago
when the heat of "the moment" lasts 20 years, the least we can say is it's about time.
- ufo 8y ago
  Better late than never, I suppose.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  'The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now.'
  - pcunite 8y ago
    Beatiful comment
joatmon-snoo 8y ago
More importantly, many thanks and congratulations to the folks who finally changed his mind.
- mcguire 8y ago
  I wonder what that discussion was like. It's not as if no one ever mentioned the subject to him before.
  - JoshTriplett 8y ago
    I have the impression that a combination of https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/764325/09702eb949176f55/ https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/764325/09702eb949176f55/ and some discussions on the Kernel Summit mailing list led to it, and almost certainly some private discussions as well.
    - mcguire 8y ago
      Thanks! A very interesting read.
  - Rapzid 8y ago
    You would think and yet.. Did none of John Lasseter's friends call him out and tell him to take the T down a notch over the past 20+ years? I've pondered over this a bit and have come to the conclusion that a lot of people simply don't have close enough friends exposed to their work behavior, or they simply accept it.. Feedback from randos isn't the most likely to instigate big personal change and reflection.
    - stephengillie 8y ago
      I call it the Impact Wrench[∆] theory of Engineer Management. It's widely practiced, sadly to modest success. This turns pressure into torque, so the harder you come down on your engineers, the faster they spin - right until they burn out. [∆]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench
    - ci5er 8y ago
      I'm a SIGGRAPH rando who implemented a clone of RenderMan in 1992 or so on Sun Workstations. (It wasn't that great of an implementation (Pat Hanrahan helped me with one bit), but because of the Sun's networking capability - it could parallelize as well as anything else at the time). I don't every recall seeing Lasseter doing anything inappropriate. To your point: The company was going through a hard time, and randos would have been the PERFECT feedback to him. The company would have died without their support. But, who could be there to tell him to take it down a notch[0], when he acted like a professional all day long? Net-net: I disagree with what you just said. [0] I generally know who was working on that project at that time, but I don't think it advances this conversation...
      - erikpukinskis 8y ago
        https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/8/17443370/pixar-walt-disney-animation-john-lasseter-leaving-company-sexual-harassment https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/8/17443370/pixar-walt-disney... It's probably relevant that the majority of Siggraph participants are not John Lasseter's subordinates.
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    It takes a lot of people in the community to have that frank discussion, "How do we tell the head of our project, in this non-for-profit/open source world, that they're a toxic asshole sometimes and should not be proud of that?"
- ci5er 8y ago
  I may be odd-man out here, but I really didn't see any part of his mind that needed to be changed. What did you disagree with?
  - TomVDB 8y ago
    I disagree strongly with his personal 'no BS' attacks. For some people, it's a huge deterrent to make contributions. I've participated in a number of open source projects. I like to think that I've made useful suggestions and contributions, in addition to making dumb ones. When I make a dumb suggestion, I expect to corrected in a respectful way. There have been cases where a project maintainer answered in an aggressive, passive aggressive or belittling way. These kind of reactions stress me out, make me lose a night of sleep etc. I can handle a rejection on sound arguments, but I don't handle stress and confrontation well at all. I wish it were different, but that's just not the way I am. They are sufficient to make me stop contributing to and leave a project. A public rebuke by somebody like Linus is my worst nightmare, and I would never consider working on the Linux kernel because of them. I image there are many more technically capable potential contributors out there who have the same reaction.
    - ci5er 8y ago
      That makes sense. I also hate personal confrontation. In the past, I have even had my own sub-ordinates (I hate that word - but they were the engineers that reported to me) confront me, leaving me, from time-to-time to go home and vomit and not sleep. So - yes - I understand. I've never looked at a rebuke from Linus in the same way. I don't know why. I guess I'll go think about that... EDIT: After (very) short reflection, I think (for me) the difference is whether it is a close personal person rebuking me, vs. some sort of distant character....
      - TomVDB 8y ago
        A distance character with the stature of Linus rebuking in public would make it so much worse for me. I'd be terrible at being a celebrity.
stephengillie 8y ago
> The key is to realize it, apologize and do better. Apologies are begging for redemption after a failure. This misses the point, and often any apology becomes a magical panacea for any fault. The key is to never fail the same way twice, and to do better in the future, so you do not need to apologize for this, ever again.

by w8rbt 8y ago

onurcel 8y ago

when the heat of "the moment" lasts 20 years, the least we can say is it's about time.

ufo 8y ago
Better late than never, I suppose.
forapurpose 8y ago
'The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now.'
- pcunite 8y ago
  Beatiful comment

joatmon-snoo 8y ago

More importantly, many thanks and congratulations to the folks who finally changed his mind.

mcguire 8y ago
I wonder what that discussion was like. It's not as if no one ever mentioned the subject to him before.
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  I have the impression that a combination of https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/764325/09702eb949176f55/ https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/764325/09702eb949176f55/ and some discussions on the Kernel Summit mailing list led to it, and almost certainly some private discussions as well.
  - mcguire 8y ago
    Thanks! A very interesting read.
- Rapzid 8y ago
  You would think and yet.. Did none of John Lasseter's friends call him out and tell him to take the T down a notch over the past 20+ years? I've pondered over this a bit and have come to the conclusion that a lot of people simply don't have close enough friends exposed to their work behavior, or they simply accept it.. Feedback from randos isn't the most likely to instigate big personal change and reflection.
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    I call it the Impact Wrench[∆] theory of Engineer Management. It's widely practiced, sadly to modest success. This turns pressure into torque, so the harder you come down on your engineers, the faster they spin - right until they burn out. [∆]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench
  - ci5er 8y ago
    I'm a SIGGRAPH rando who implemented a clone of RenderMan in 1992 or so on Sun Workstations. (It wasn't that great of an implementation (Pat Hanrahan helped me with one bit), but because of the Sun's networking capability - it could parallelize as well as anything else at the time). I don't every recall seeing Lasseter doing anything inappropriate. To your point: The company was going through a hard time, and randos would have been the PERFECT feedback to him. The company would have died without their support. But, who could be there to tell him to take it down a notch[0], when he acted like a professional all day long? Net-net: I disagree with what you just said. [0] I generally know who was working on that project at that time, but I don't think it advances this conversation...
    - erikpukinskis 8y ago
      https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/8/17443370/pixar-walt-disney-animation-john-lasseter-leaving-company-sexual-harassment https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/8/17443370/pixar-walt-disney... It's probably relevant that the majority of Siggraph participants are not John Lasseter's subordinates.
- djsumdog 8y ago
  It takes a lot of people in the community to have that frank discussion, "How do we tell the head of our project, in this non-for-profit/open source world, that they're a toxic asshole sometimes and should not be proud of that?"
ci5er 8y ago
I may be odd-man out here, but I really didn't see any part of his mind that needed to be changed. What did you disagree with?
- TomVDB 8y ago
  I disagree strongly with his personal 'no BS' attacks. For some people, it's a huge deterrent to make contributions. I've participated in a number of open source projects. I like to think that I've made useful suggestions and contributions, in addition to making dumb ones. When I make a dumb suggestion, I expect to corrected in a respectful way. There have been cases where a project maintainer answered in an aggressive, passive aggressive or belittling way. These kind of reactions stress me out, make me lose a night of sleep etc. I can handle a rejection on sound arguments, but I don't handle stress and confrontation well at all. I wish it were different, but that's just not the way I am. They are sufficient to make me stop contributing to and leave a project. A public rebuke by somebody like Linus is my worst nightmare, and I would never consider working on the Linux kernel because of them. I image there are many more technically capable potential contributors out there who have the same reaction.
  - ci5er 8y ago
    That makes sense. I also hate personal confrontation. In the past, I have even had my own sub-ordinates (I hate that word - but they were the engineers that reported to me) confront me, leaving me, from time-to-time to go home and vomit and not sleep. So - yes - I understand. I've never looked at a rebuke from Linus in the same way. I don't know why. I guess I'll go think about that... EDIT: After (very) short reflection, I think (for me) the difference is whether it is a close personal person rebuking me, vs. some sort of distant character....
    - TomVDB 8y ago
      A distance character with the stature of Linus rebuking in public would make it so much worse for me. I'd be terrible at being a celebrity.

stephengillie 8y ago

> The key is to realize it, apologize and do better. Apologies are begging for redemption after a failure. This misses the point, and often any apology becomes a magical panacea for any fault. The key is to never fail the same way twice, and to do better in the future, so you do not need to apologize for this, ever again.