6 ms·

pattern welding is, effectively, a solution to a problem we don't have any more. When steel quality varied widely between batches, you needed a reliable way to

pattern welding is, effectively, a solution to a problem we don't have any more. When steel quality varied widely between batches, you needed a reliable way to mix it up so that the overall properties of the resulting object were predictable. This evolved into a more sophisticated technique that gave you not only predictability but differential properties (harder steel at the edge, more ductile in the spine) and a pretty visual result. The batch variability problem isn't a problem any more, and we can get differential properties with very precise heat treatments now, so all that's left is the pretty visual result. So, if it appeals to you; great! Just don't think you're getting anything that's super magical above and beyond what a modern alloy can do.

abakker 8y ago
I’m not sure that is fully true - the authority on this that I think has proven out his trustworthiness in the knifemaking community, Kevin Cashen, makes a compelling argument that with correct heat treatment, pattern welding gives you the ability to mix alloys. He frequently uses an O1/L6 blend. I am not saying that most of it isn’t cosmetic - that is certaninly the point most of the time, but, for boutique knife makers, it can give you more options if what you want is not available in a commercially made alloy. Keep in mind that most commercial steels are not the “best possible” for knives, but frequently the best balance of performance, and manufacturability (I.e. they avoid very complicated heat treats, and very expensive hard grinding with lots of embedded carbides).
n1000 8y ago
To my understanding Damascus was indeed not needed anymore as sword fighting came out of fashion. For swords it was very useful to have flexible yet sharp blades. Or has Damascus steel been traditionally used for knives too?
- colechristensen 8y ago
  The idea is that Damascus steel was a technology from before there was much metallurgy knowledge. These days we have a molecular knowledge of steel and can control and test the microstructure at that scale. If you really want the best knife you look to metallurgists not artisans. Whatever you could do with Damascus steel you could do better with modern alloys and science. There's nothing wrong with the old ways, but there is a lot of magical thinking about knives and swords that doesn't have much basis in reality. Buying in to the mythology can be fun as long as you don't get too attached to the myth and start confusing it with actual utility. In other words, nobody owns a Rolex because they think it'll do a better job at letting them know the time.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    For swords, I gather that key features are 1) notching or shattering other blades, and 2) resisting being notched or shattered by them. Are you arguing that modern alloys and methods can do a better job at that than Damascus or other classical methods involving layering and folding?
    - ballooney 8y ago
      That is the case, yes.
      - mirimir 8y ago
        Cool. I guess it's just that there's a lot more demand for gun barrels than swords in recent centuries. So there's not much practical experience, and the delusion persists that the old ways are better. But still, the patterns can be beautiful. I've seen blades with patterns that resemble engravings. Maybe the approaches could be merged, to yield modern performance with classic beauty.
        roel_v 8y ago
        But why? The hypothetical people who would actually fight with such things today don't care about how it looks. Go to a gun show or AR15 enthusiast forum and compare how those guns look with those that people in the military or SWAT teams use. Playing with guns/swords is fundamentally different from actually relying on them not to die. And then you have the people who like knives/swords for how they look, and would like to be able to argue that 'their' sword/knife also has the most utility if it were to be actually used. But they already do that, and are fully convinced of it, too! And the lack of actual substantive evidence (even if one could devise a single optimum function by which to measure each knife/sword...) is what keeps all these people, and the whole industry, going. So it's in nobodies interest to have one single 'best' thing. (and that's even ignoring that the amount of idiocy and stubbornness in such communities is staggering - look at the comments on the OP!)
        8y ago
scns 8y ago
I know this does not have anithing to do with knives but Samurai swords are made from four different kinds of steel. The core, back, sides and the cutting edge. The sword is straight when forged and the arc comes from the hardening when the cutting edge expands more than the rest. Source: witnessed in person the first time when a katana was forged outside of japan at a festival at the japanese culture institute in cologne. The swordsmiths have the rank of a priest and wear white robes.
- hef19898 8y ago
  From a pure material perpective, the issues, also for the Japanese, was poor steel and iron ore quality (as an other comment stated above). So in order to get all you inpurities out of the final product, melting processes weren't up to the task yet, you are basically obliged to pattern weld the shit out of your steel. Particularly in Japan, this was compounded by having iron ore mostly as part of a sand-ore mixture (without magnets getting the pure ore out without mixing it with sand is close to impossible). As a result the Japanese came up with a very smart forging technioque to solve that problem. And the swords, at least the high end ones, are pieces of art. Not fielding full-plate armor like the Europeans did, cutting remained a desired quality for a soldiers side arm. So they stuck with it. Simultaniously, the Europeans developed spring steel and weapons developed in a totally different direction.

abakker 8y ago

I’m not sure that is fully true - the authority on this that I think has proven out his trustworthiness in the knifemaking community, Kevin Cashen, makes a compelling argument that with correct heat treatment, pattern welding gives you the ability to mix alloys. He frequently uses an O1/L6 blend. I am not saying that most of it isn’t cosmetic - that is certaninly the point most of the time, but, for boutique knife makers, it can give you more options if what you want is not available in a commercially made alloy. Keep in mind that most commercial steels are not the “best possible” for knives, but frequently the best balance of performance, and manufacturability (I.e. they avoid very complicated heat treats, and very expensive hard grinding with lots of embedded carbides).

n1000 8y ago

To my understanding Damascus was indeed not needed anymore as sword fighting came out of fashion. For swords it was very useful to have flexible yet sharp blades. Or has Damascus steel been traditionally used for knives too?

colechristensen 8y ago
The idea is that Damascus steel was a technology from before there was much metallurgy knowledge. These days we have a molecular knowledge of steel and can control and test the microstructure at that scale. If you really want the best knife you look to metallurgists not artisans. Whatever you could do with Damascus steel you could do better with modern alloys and science. There's nothing wrong with the old ways, but there is a lot of magical thinking about knives and swords that doesn't have much basis in reality. Buying in to the mythology can be fun as long as you don't get too attached to the myth and start confusing it with actual utility. In other words, nobody owns a Rolex because they think it'll do a better job at letting them know the time.
- mirimir 8y ago
  For swords, I gather that key features are 1) notching or shattering other blades, and 2) resisting being notched or shattered by them. Are you arguing that modern alloys and methods can do a better job at that than Damascus or other classical methods involving layering and folding?
  - ballooney 8y ago
    That is the case, yes.
    - mirimir 8y ago
      Cool. I guess it's just that there's a lot more demand for gun barrels than swords in recent centuries. So there's not much practical experience, and the delusion persists that the old ways are better. But still, the patterns can be beautiful. I've seen blades with patterns that resemble engravings. Maybe the approaches could be merged, to yield modern performance with classic beauty.
      - roel_v 8y ago
        But why? The hypothetical people who would actually fight with such things today don't care about how it looks. Go to a gun show or AR15 enthusiast forum and compare how those guns look with those that people in the military or SWAT teams use. Playing with guns/swords is fundamentally different from actually relying on them not to die. And then you have the people who like knives/swords for how they look, and would like to be able to argue that 'their' sword/knife also has the most utility if it were to be actually used. But they already do that, and are fully convinced of it, too! And the lack of actual substantive evidence (even if one could devise a single optimum function by which to measure each knife/sword...) is what keeps all these people, and the whole industry, going. So it's in nobodies interest to have one single 'best' thing. (and that's even ignoring that the amount of idiocy and stubbornness in such communities is staggering - look at the comments on the OP!)
        8y ago

scns 8y ago

I know this does not have anithing to do with knives but Samurai swords are made from four different kinds of steel. The core, back, sides and the cutting edge. The sword is straight when forged and the arc comes from the hardening when the cutting edge expands more than the rest. Source: witnessed in person the first time when a katana was forged outside of japan at a festival at the japanese culture institute in cologne. The swordsmiths have the rank of a priest and wear white robes.

hef19898 8y ago
From a pure material perpective, the issues, also for the Japanese, was poor steel and iron ore quality (as an other comment stated above). So in order to get all you inpurities out of the final product, melting processes weren't up to the task yet, you are basically obliged to pattern weld the shit out of your steel. Particularly in Japan, this was compounded by having iron ore mostly as part of a sand-ore mixture (without magnets getting the pure ore out without mixing it with sand is close to impossible). As a result the Japanese came up with a very smart forging technioque to solve that problem. And the swords, at least the high end ones, are pieces of art. Not fielding full-plate armor like the Europeans did, cutting remained a desired quality for a soldiers side arm. So they stuck with it. Simultaniously, the Europeans developed spring steel and weapons developed in a totally different direction.