4 ms·

E Ink seems to be one of the technologies that is hampered solely by patents. It's too sad that we're only going to get major innovations in e ink tech in 15-20

E Ink seems to be one of the technologies that is hampered solely by patents. It's too sad that we're only going to get major innovations in e ink tech in 15-20 Years...

reustle 8y ago
Would/could/do Chinese manufacturers ignore those patents? Are they not able to sell abroad if they do?
- jfim 8y ago
  Importers would likely get their shipments seized. It's not illegal for manufacturers to export their goods out of China, but US customs doesn't look too highly on importing goods that contravene on registered US IP. Small time shipments are unlikely to be looked at (eg. if someone buys a single electronic ink display off of AliExpress), but someone actually importing many displays for resale would likely eventually get caught.
  - dev_dull 8y ago
    Honestly how would you even know if the e-ink displays infringe on IP? I can’t imagine them doing anything.
    - colordrops 8y ago
      Enough market/distribution and either the patent owner or a patent troll will find out.
    - extrapickles 8y ago
      A patent gives you a monopoly which makes things easy. You occasionally search the market for products that contain your tech (in this case eink), then look in your records to see if they bought/licensed from you.
      - billfruit 8y ago
        But is it that infringement can be proven only by a court? So can US customs do any thing in such cases, even if we assume they have the competency to judge if a particular import violates IP.
        toast0 8y ago
        They file a case, and ask for a preliminary injunction. And once that's granted (which is likely), they take that order to customs, and customs will start looking for those devices in shipments from your supplier or to you.
- luka-birsa 8y ago
  Nobody in their right mind would invest 100M in a production line that is likely to be shut down.
  - contingencies 8y ago
    Usually you don't have to buy the line, you order sub-assemblies from different suppliers and do final assembly.
- userbinator 8y ago
  I think there are already some which do --- we just don't hear about them much because they tend to be fairly anonymous (for good reason). I remember reading about "fake" Kindle replacement displays showing up on eBay a while ago, not as good as the real thing in terms of image quality etc. but certainly usable, so someone is clearly making them...
- captainmuon 8y ago
  It's a common misconception that there is no IP law in China. Patents do exist, and you do have to respect them (at least if it is a chinese patent or you intend to sell into the patent's country). Of course, as with many things there, enforcement is spotty, so you might get away with it for a while. But the days are over where you could completely fly under the radar with a grey market production. It's hard to completely hide your big ass illegal factory in Shenzhen, especially when you have to register every little thing with the state. As in every other country, your competitors or patent owners can just get a lawyer, look up your address, and sue you. Granted, I do understand that from the perspective of a western entrepreneur trying to do business in China it seems to be a lawless space, especially if you've been burnt by fake products from Alibaba etc..
- fooker 8y ago
  Considering that you can buy 5$-20$ E ink panels on Alixpress today, I would guess those manufacturers do ignore western patents.
luka-birsa 8y ago
We shall see if you are correct very soon (for display tech anyway). Key (initial) patents have already stared expiring and will continue to do so quite quickly (1-5 years). Check : - https://patents.google.com/?assignee=E+Ink+Corp https://patents.google.com/?assignee=E+Ink+Corp - https://patents.google.com/patent/US6422687B1/en?assignee=E+Ink+Corp https://patents.google.com/patent/US6422687B1/en?assignee=E+...
captainmuon 8y ago
I don't understand how that is even possible. Patent owners want their cut, but in the end they want the product to be made, too, because that's the only way they get money. So they will take as high a cut they can negotiate, reducing the margins of the end manufacturer to a marginal price. But that is the case with every "supplier". At work I looked into integrating e-ink into a product, and the problem seems not patent fees, but availability. Granted, that could be due to patents itself, but the answers I got why it's hard to procure e-ink display were sadly "the end customers don't want it" and "e-ink is dead".
- nikanj 8y ago
  A VC will not invest in a firm, if someone else has the ability to extract all future profits via patent licensing
- wpietri 8y ago
  It's possible because people have different theories of what will benefit themselves. In a functioning marketplace, different suppliers will explore different options. With a monopoly, which is what patents are, you're stuck with whatever notion the patent-owner has. One perfectly reasonable theory of self-interest is to keep prices very high. Yes, they could drop the price and possibly make more. But they could end up making less, and they'll certainly have to do a lot more negotiation work. As an analogy, look at Apple. They have less than 20% of the smartphone market, but make 80% of the profit. [1] They were way ahead of everybody and could have captured a much larger share of both the phone and tablet markets. They're using a different theory of self-interest than the other players. [1] https://www.investors.com/news/technology/click/apple-rakes-in-bulk-of-smartphone-profits-but-small-slice-of-unit-sales/ https://www.investors.com/news/technology/click/apple-rakes-...
  - ddingus 8y ago
    I think that theory boils down to margins. The people making zillions of phones make a fraction of the margin Apple does on it's cool phones.
orbital-decay 8y ago
Funny how the name of the company (E Ink) became almost synonymous with the actual tech (EPD, or electronic paper if you want to generalize).
- myfonj 8y ago
  This is quite common pattern: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericized_trademarks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericize...
slavik81 8y ago
You can't keep things secret by patenting them. These are trade secrets, which last indefinitely. However, trade secrets are granted fewer protections.
- tajen 8y ago
  and the historic basis of patents is “Strong protection for 20 years, but you gotta share your invention”.

E Ink seems to be one of the technologies that is hampered solely by patents. It's too sad that we're only going to get major innovations in e ink tech in 15-20 Years...

reustle 8y ago

Would/could/do Chinese manufacturers ignore those patents? Are they not able to sell abroad if they do?

jfim 8y ago
Importers would likely get their shipments seized. It's not illegal for manufacturers to export their goods out of China, but US customs doesn't look too highly on importing goods that contravene on registered US IP. Small time shipments are unlikely to be looked at (eg. if someone buys a single electronic ink display off of AliExpress), but someone actually importing many displays for resale would likely eventually get caught.
- dev_dull 8y ago
  Honestly how would you even know if the e-ink displays infringe on IP? I can’t imagine them doing anything.
  - colordrops 8y ago
    Enough market/distribution and either the patent owner or a patent troll will find out.
  - extrapickles 8y ago
    A patent gives you a monopoly which makes things easy. You occasionally search the market for products that contain your tech (in this case eink), then look in your records to see if they bought/licensed from you.
    - billfruit 8y ago
      But is it that infringement can be proven only by a court? So can US customs do any thing in such cases, even if we assume they have the competency to judge if a particular import violates IP.
      - toast0 8y ago
        They file a case, and ask for a preliminary injunction. And once that's granted (which is likely), they take that order to customs, and customs will start looking for those devices in shipments from your supplier or to you.
luka-birsa 8y ago
Nobody in their right mind would invest 100M in a production line that is likely to be shut down.
- contingencies 8y ago
  Usually you don't have to buy the line, you order sub-assemblies from different suppliers and do final assembly.
userbinator 8y ago
I think there are already some which do --- we just don't hear about them much because they tend to be fairly anonymous (for good reason). I remember reading about "fake" Kindle replacement displays showing up on eBay a while ago, not as good as the real thing in terms of image quality etc. but certainly usable, so someone is clearly making them...
captainmuon 8y ago
It's a common misconception that there is no IP law in China. Patents do exist, and you do have to respect them (at least if it is a chinese patent or you intend to sell into the patent's country). Of course, as with many things there, enforcement is spotty, so you might get away with it for a while. But the days are over where you could completely fly under the radar with a grey market production. It's hard to completely hide your big ass illegal factory in Shenzhen, especially when you have to register every little thing with the state. As in every other country, your competitors or patent owners can just get a lawyer, look up your address, and sue you. Granted, I do understand that from the perspective of a western entrepreneur trying to do business in China it seems to be a lawless space, especially if you've been burnt by fake products from Alibaba etc..
fooker 8y ago
Considering that you can buy 5$-20$ E ink panels on Alixpress today, I would guess those manufacturers do ignore western patents.

luka-birsa 8y ago

We shall see if you are correct very soon (for display tech anyway). Key (initial) patents have already stared expiring and will continue to do so quite quickly (1-5 years). Check : - https://patents.google.com/?assignee=E+Ink+Corp https://patents.google.com/?assignee=E+Ink+Corp - https://patents.google.com/patent/US6422687B1/en?assignee=E+Ink+Corp https://patents.google.com/patent/US6422687B1/en?assignee=E+...

captainmuon 8y ago

I don't understand how that is even possible. Patent owners want their cut, but in the end they want the product to be made, too, because that's the only way they get money. So they will take as high a cut they can negotiate, reducing the margins of the end manufacturer to a marginal price. But that is the case with every "supplier". At work I looked into integrating e-ink into a product, and the problem seems not patent fees, but availability. Granted, that could be due to patents itself, but the answers I got why it's hard to procure e-ink display were sadly "the end customers don't want it" and "e-ink is dead".

nikanj 8y ago
A VC will not invest in a firm, if someone else has the ability to extract all future profits via patent licensing
wpietri 8y ago
It's possible because people have different theories of what will benefit themselves. In a functioning marketplace, different suppliers will explore different options. With a monopoly, which is what patents are, you're stuck with whatever notion the patent-owner has. One perfectly reasonable theory of self-interest is to keep prices very high. Yes, they could drop the price and possibly make more. But they could end up making less, and they'll certainly have to do a lot more negotiation work. As an analogy, look at Apple. They have less than 20% of the smartphone market, but make 80% of the profit. [1] They were way ahead of everybody and could have captured a much larger share of both the phone and tablet markets. They're using a different theory of self-interest than the other players. [1] https://www.investors.com/news/technology/click/apple-rakes-in-bulk-of-smartphone-profits-but-small-slice-of-unit-sales/ https://www.investors.com/news/technology/click/apple-rakes-...
- ddingus 8y ago
  I think that theory boils down to margins. The people making zillions of phones make a fraction of the margin Apple does on it's cool phones.

orbital-decay 8y ago

Funny how the name of the company (E Ink) became almost synonymous with the actual tech (EPD, or electronic paper if you want to generalize).

myfonj 8y ago
This is quite common pattern: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericized_trademarks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericize...

slavik81 8y ago

You can't keep things secret by patenting them. These are trade secrets, which last indefinitely. However, trade secrets are granted fewer protections.

tajen 8y ago
and the historic basis of patents is “Strong protection for 20 years, but you gotta share your invention”.