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9/11 didn't really spawn ISIL either. ISIL is really a function of the Arab spring, spawned by a general popular Arab uprising, which was spawned by a singular

9/11 didn't really spawn ISIL either. ISIL is really a function of the Arab spring, spawned by a general popular Arab uprising, which was spawned by a singular uprising in Tunisia, spawned by a single man committing suicide, spawned by Manning's blind cable releases. The financial crises was global, and nearly brought the American economic system down, I don't think people realize how close we came to serious disaster. The President handed out 1 Trillion dollars in 'magic dollars' to quelch the system it was crazy. It affected everyone in the world. Almost every American was directly affected. 9/11 surely the biggest geopolitical event.

dajohnson89 8y ago
>spawned by Manning's blind cable releases. Genuinely curious, do you have any good sources that explain how the cable releases triggered this set of events? I understand that Manning/Assange have jeopardized some US intelligence efforts (and lives), but not aware of any greater fallout beyond a handful of compromised operations and deaths (no small feat, but smaller than ISIL).
- _jal 8y ago
  I'm going to have to see some more flesh on those bones, too. This is a curiously strong claim about bright-line causality in a very large, very messy series of events with many actors.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    The leaks 'lit' the Arab Spring which had a lot of momentum, and ISIL is an artifact of the Arab Spring. Obviously conditions were there. The later is not in much dispute, the former just not more widely known. https://psmag.com/news/tunisian-activist-describes-mannings-leaks-helped-topple-dictator-65243 https://psmag.com/news/tunisian-activist-describes-mannings-... https://medium.com/@ifikra/chelsea-manning-and-the-arab-spring-1907fec77df1 https://medium.com/@ifikra/chelsea-manning-and-the-arab-spri... http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/wikihistory-did-leaks-inspire-arab-spring http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/wikihistory-did-l...
    - dajohnson89 8y ago
      I thought that ISIL is more an artifact of the power vacuum brought about by the 2nd US invasion of Iraq. Admittedly, I'm not an expert in these matters, but wasn't the void in Iraq a factor in ISIS's uprising?
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  The Manning leaks helped spawn the Arab Spring for a set of upside down reasons. Manning had no understanding of what he was doing, nor could anyone expect the outcome. Moroever, the leaks did not show the Americans 'being evil' to the world, in fact, just the opposite: the leaks showed thousands of professional diplomats doing their mundane jobs in a difficult and complicated world. Given how many cables were leaked, and that nothing explosive came out of that making the Americans look particularly evil is a real testament to the professionalism of the American diplomatic corps. What the cables did however - was demonstrate to regular Arabs how deeply corrupt their own leaders were. Basically, they saw the Americans trying to appease, nudge, console, 'do the best they could' with some corrupt folks. I'm sorry to not have direct sources, it was years ago when I was abroad, paying attention to all of this. Edit: I added a couple of sources below, it's not a conspiratorial view.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    Oh, that's pretty cool then. At least it informed people about how bad their leaders were.
stevenwoo 8y ago
ISIL was more created by the US occupation of Iraq and our subsequent disbanding and forced unemployment of the Sunni dominated military, a misguided attempt at a clean slate by the Bush adminstration's incompetence. This gave a large population of people with military training and easy access to weapons a lot of idle time and nothing to do but stew under occupation, add the historic animosity between the new government led by Shiites was a recipe for unrest. Your Arab Spring argument is nonsense - ISIL was around in various names before the Arab Spring. A simple look at the calendar for the events shows this.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Not really. ISIL and the various other groups from whence they came had no material presence until the Syrian uprising, which was part of the Arab spring. They were a small band of angry nobodies before that. During the Syrian uprising, those groups coalesced and came to power, taking territory, getting funding, bringing in foreign fighters. Even if they had origins elsewhere, 'they came to be' during this time, in Syria. Iraq materially comes into the picture later, when Obama withdrew American forces form Iraq, which enabled then Iraqi PM Malaki to purge government of Sunnis, deepening the rift between Sunni/Shia, as you mentioned. Then ISIL effectively came into Iraq - as the local Sunni tribes in Iraq turned their back on their own antagonizing government, and allowed ISIL in. If Obama had of left 10K troops in Iraq, behind the wire, giving him enough leverage with the Iraqi PM so as to be able to contain the Sunni/Shia animosity (as they had done up until that time) - then there would have never been any ISIL incursion into Iraq and the state would have remained intact. Whatever we think about the 2003 invasion, there is no amount of 'US competence' which would completely disable small groups of dudes from forming some degree of insurgency. Any country invading any other always faces this kind of opposition. Without Manning's cables, there wouldn't have been an Arab Spring, without that in Syria, none of us would have ever heard of ISIL. I'm not promoting or defending Manning, just indicating the course of events.
rchaud 8y ago
You seem to be linking the rise of ISIL to the Arab spring and ruling regime's corruption, without listing any related factors. ISIL was able to scale the way they did because they already controlled a good amount of territory in neighboring Iraq, which was in full-fledged civil war since at least 2006, a conflict in which the US spent significant amounts of the 'magic money' you mention.

dajohnson89 8y ago

>spawned by Manning's blind cable releases. Genuinely curious, do you have any good sources that explain how the cable releases triggered this set of events? I understand that Manning/Assange have jeopardized some US intelligence efforts (and lives), but not aware of any greater fallout beyond a handful of compromised operations and deaths (no small feat, but smaller than ISIL).

_jal 8y ago
I'm going to have to see some more flesh on those bones, too. This is a curiously strong claim about bright-line causality in a very large, very messy series of events with many actors.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  The leaks 'lit' the Arab Spring which had a lot of momentum, and ISIL is an artifact of the Arab Spring. Obviously conditions were there. The later is not in much dispute, the former just not more widely known. https://psmag.com/news/tunisian-activist-describes-mannings-leaks-helped-topple-dictator-65243 https://psmag.com/news/tunisian-activist-describes-mannings-... https://medium.com/@ifikra/chelsea-manning-and-the-arab-spring-1907fec77df1 https://medium.com/@ifikra/chelsea-manning-and-the-arab-spri... http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/wikihistory-did-leaks-inspire-arab-spring http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/wikihistory-did-l...
  - dajohnson89 8y ago
    I thought that ISIL is more an artifact of the power vacuum brought about by the 2nd US invasion of Iraq. Admittedly, I'm not an expert in these matters, but wasn't the void in Iraq a factor in ISIS's uprising?
sonnyblarney 8y ago
The Manning leaks helped spawn the Arab Spring for a set of upside down reasons. Manning had no understanding of what he was doing, nor could anyone expect the outcome. Moroever, the leaks did not show the Americans 'being evil' to the world, in fact, just the opposite: the leaks showed thousands of professional diplomats doing their mundane jobs in a difficult and complicated world. Given how many cables were leaked, and that nothing explosive came out of that making the Americans look particularly evil is a real testament to the professionalism of the American diplomatic corps. What the cables did however - was demonstrate to regular Arabs how deeply corrupt their own leaders were. Basically, they saw the Americans trying to appease, nudge, console, 'do the best they could' with some corrupt folks. I'm sorry to not have direct sources, it was years ago when I was abroad, paying attention to all of this. Edit: I added a couple of sources below, it's not a conspiratorial view.
- stale2002 8y ago
  Oh, that's pretty cool then. At least it informed people about how bad their leaders were.

stevenwoo 8y ago

ISIL was more created by the US occupation of Iraq and our subsequent disbanding and forced unemployment of the Sunni dominated military, a misguided attempt at a clean slate by the Bush adminstration's incompetence. This gave a large population of people with military training and easy access to weapons a lot of idle time and nothing to do but stew under occupation, add the historic animosity between the new government led by Shiites was a recipe for unrest. Your Arab Spring argument is nonsense - ISIL was around in various names before the Arab Spring. A simple look at the calendar for the events shows this.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
Not really. ISIL and the various other groups from whence they came had no material presence until the Syrian uprising, which was part of the Arab spring. They were a small band of angry nobodies before that. During the Syrian uprising, those groups coalesced and came to power, taking territory, getting funding, bringing in foreign fighters. Even if they had origins elsewhere, 'they came to be' during this time, in Syria. Iraq materially comes into the picture later, when Obama withdrew American forces form Iraq, which enabled then Iraqi PM Malaki to purge government of Sunnis, deepening the rift between Sunni/Shia, as you mentioned. Then ISIL effectively came into Iraq - as the local Sunni tribes in Iraq turned their back on their own antagonizing government, and allowed ISIL in. If Obama had of left 10K troops in Iraq, behind the wire, giving him enough leverage with the Iraqi PM so as to be able to contain the Sunni/Shia animosity (as they had done up until that time) - then there would have never been any ISIL incursion into Iraq and the state would have remained intact. Whatever we think about the 2003 invasion, there is no amount of 'US competence' which would completely disable small groups of dudes from forming some degree of insurgency. Any country invading any other always faces this kind of opposition. Without Manning's cables, there wouldn't have been an Arab Spring, without that in Syria, none of us would have ever heard of ISIL. I'm not promoting or defending Manning, just indicating the course of events.

rchaud 8y ago

You seem to be linking the rise of ISIL to the Arab spring and ruling regime's corruption, without listing any related factors. ISIL was able to scale the way they did because they already controlled a good amount of territory in neighboring Iraq, which was in full-fledged civil war since at least 2006, a conflict in which the US spent significant amounts of the 'magic money' you mention.