7 ms·

"The financial crisis remains the most influential event of the 21st century." Uh... I think 9/11 may disagree. The financial crisis didn't spawn wars and ISIL

by larrik 8y ago

"The financial crisis remains the most influential event of the 21st century." Uh... I think 9/11 may disagree. The financial crisis didn't spawn wars and ISIL.

maxxxxx 8y ago
At least in Western societies the financial crisis will have a much bigger impact than 9/11. A lot of people learned that the system that was supposed to reward people that do the right things does not work that way and lost faith in it. That enabled the rise of nationalist parties, Trump, Brexit and others. We will see how things will work out but I think there is a good chance that the world will change a lot in the next decades because the financial crisis made clear that the system doesn't work for the regular guy.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  From my reading of right wing media, it seems like terrorism and immigration are much larger contributors to the rise of nationalism.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I am not that much into conspiracy but I think economic anger and pain is being redirected against "others" by powerful people. Trump is a good example for this. Same in silicon valley. Instead of going against income inequality people talk about diversity, LGBT and other things that don't threaten the power and income of the owning class.
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      I don't think working class people actually care that much about income inequality. But I do think they care about competing for jobs with people who don't even speak the native language. And I do think they care when they see things on the shelves at Walmart which are now made in China, but which used to be made at the local factory. FWIW. Just my read on the situation.
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        I think they care about feeling secure in their life. I think most people do that. In the current economy they don't feel secure so you can explain that with foreigners, capitalists or something else.
    - nemo44x 8y ago
      I'm not into conspiracies either but just follow the money. Who is endowing universities with billions of dollars? And what types of social issues / humanities do these universities teach to kids and which ones due they tend to ignore?
  - _jal 8y ago
    If you're economically trapped in a precarious position, shouting about immigration and terrorism (by the Other) is far more effective at scaring people into falling in line. It is lifeboat "reasoning" at the tribe level.
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      The issues the working class has with large scale immigration are legitimate. Econ 101: adding more supply of some thing (labor) will reduce the price of that thing (wages).
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        Another econ 101: some group taking an increasing share of a more or less fixed pie will cause others to get less.
        toasterlovin 8y ago
        They're separate issues. It is not coherent to argue that one problem isn't a problem because another problem exists.
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        You are 100% right. What I tried to say is that some powerful people are trying to channel economic anxiety into explanations that don't threaten their own power. Being angry about immigration or diversity doesn't really threaten billionaires but being angry about inequality does. So of several problems the propaganda machine picks the most convenient.
      - munificent 8y ago
        > Econ 101: adding more supply of some thing (labor) will reduce the price of that thing (wages). Econ 201: Immigrants are consumers too. Adding more demand for some thing (consumers of products) will increase the price of that thing (wages of producers). Almost everyone agrees that growing the economy is good. When a child is born, we don't lament how that infant will be driving down wages when they reach adulthood. There is nothing different about immigrants. They are full participants in all sides of the economy. The real reason that immigrants are a threat to American workers is because they will accept shittier jobs. They drive down quality of the average job because they are more willing to suffer. But that's not a problem with immigrants, it's a problem with our worker protection laws and how they are enforced. Neither immigrants nor non-immigrants should have to pee in cups to avoid leaving the assembly line, work full time without benefits, have unreported workplace-caused injuries, etc.
mc32 8y ago
It’s from the opinion column. Not sure of his economics credentials. So take it for what it is, an opinion piece.
- larrik 8y ago
  Reading further into the article, this wasn't my only "wait, what?" moment...
sillyquiet 8y ago
While I get where you are coming from I would argue (and anybody alive and paying attention to the region during the 1990s would likely agree) that 9/11 was a symptom of the ongoing issues in the Middle-East (largely due to fallout from colonization and Cold War politics), and not a causal event. That is not to say the response to 9/11 didn't throw gasoline on the fire.
- massysett 8y ago
  You could say the exact same thing about the financial crisis when it comes to being a symptom rather than a causal event.
qaq 8y ago
That would be fairly US centric view there are a lot of countries that were not touched by 9/11 but very few (if any) not affected by the financial crisis.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  I think the argument would be that 9/11 has had follow on effects on global politics.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jpollock 8y ago
The financial crisis had a broader reach around the world than 9/11 did. 9/11 made it harder for me to fly, but the financial crisis cost friends jobs.
- randomdata 8y ago
  I would say that losing a job is better than being bombed (in reference to the wars mentioned by the parent). Naturally, it all depends on your perspective. If you were in a safe nation, then losing a job is a big deal. Of course, the financial criss was a financial crisis because all of the money poured into tech and commodities and not much else. Given the tech-focused nature of this site, our perspective is going to be skewed by that time being one of the most prosperous periods ever (the late 90s probably has it beat).
- scotty79 8y ago
  9/11 main impact is cementing USA image as unlikable, cowardly, irrational jerk of a country that can happily ignore international community and start two wars (three, if you count fake "war on terrorism") because of one random act of vioilent human stupidity. Global cultural impact of 9/11 and what followed is huge. And crisis... You can always make more money.
  - jartelt 8y ago
    Many people in the US never travel internationally and don't really follow international politics. If you are from the states stay within the states, why would you care if other countries think the US is a bully and a jerk? Outside of knowing someone who went to war after 9/11, 9/11 probably didn't affect your day to day much after a year or two. I imagine this is the case for many people in the midwest and south. If you were a factory worker in Indiana, it probably hurt a lot to lose your job in the recession and see your home value plummet. If you were supposed to retire in 2008, you also saw your 401k plummet as well. You may not have even fully recovered your net worth at this point. That would be something that weighs on you everyday.
    - 8y ago
sonnyblarney 8y ago
9/11 didn't really spawn ISIL either. ISIL is really a function of the Arab spring, spawned by a general popular Arab uprising, which was spawned by a singular uprising in Tunisia, spawned by a single man committing suicide, spawned by Manning's blind cable releases. The financial crises was global, and nearly brought the American economic system down, I don't think people realize how close we came to serious disaster. The President handed out 1 Trillion dollars in 'magic dollars' to quelch the system it was crazy. It affected everyone in the world. Almost every American was directly affected. 9/11 surely the biggest geopolitical event.
- dajohnson89 8y ago
  >spawned by Manning's blind cable releases. Genuinely curious, do you have any good sources that explain how the cable releases triggered this set of events? I understand that Manning/Assange have jeopardized some US intelligence efforts (and lives), but not aware of any greater fallout beyond a handful of compromised operations and deaths (no small feat, but smaller than ISIL).
  - _jal 8y ago
    I'm going to have to see some more flesh on those bones, too. This is a curiously strong claim about bright-line causality in a very large, very messy series of events with many actors.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      The leaks 'lit' the Arab Spring which had a lot of momentum, and ISIL is an artifact of the Arab Spring. Obviously conditions were there. The later is not in much dispute, the former just not more widely known. https://psmag.com/news/tunisian-activist-describes-mannings-leaks-helped-topple-dictator-65243 https://psmag.com/news/tunisian-activist-describes-mannings-... https://medium.com/@ifikra/chelsea-manning-and-the-arab-spring-1907fec77df1 https://medium.com/@ifikra/chelsea-manning-and-the-arab-spri... http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/wikihistory-did-leaks-inspire-arab-spring http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/wikihistory-did-l...
ArchTypical 8y ago
> I think 9/11 may disagree Only in the US, which is arguable. Every person in the US is affected by the 2008 events every month. 9/11 is hardly a blip in most of the US, outside of the lukewarm media attention about tangentially related eventualities. Americans get very upset when they don't opt-in to risk and end up being exposed to violence unwittingly, but that's life. It's no more or less tragic than when you get diagnosed with cancer. 40k people die in car accidents each year. 5-10k die of a terrorist attack almost 20 years ago. It's immoral to worship one single tragedy that pales in comparison to those ongoing. I live with the solace that those who are born after 9/11 will have a saner perspective.
seppin 8y ago
"wars and ISIL" are a big deal for the < 1% (0.4) of Americans serving in the military, and for the people living in these countries dealing with armed insurgencies, but 2008 had an impact on hundreds of millions of Americans beyond taking off their shoes at airports.

by larrik 8y ago

"The financial crisis remains the most influential event of the 21st century." Uh... I think 9/11 may disagree. The financial crisis didn't spawn wars and ISIL.

maxxxxx 8y ago

At least in Western societies the financial crisis will have a much bigger impact than 9/11. A lot of people learned that the system that was supposed to reward people that do the right things does not work that way and lost faith in it. That enabled the rise of nationalist parties, Trump, Brexit and others. We will see how things will work out but I think there is a good chance that the world will change a lot in the next decades because the financial crisis made clear that the system doesn't work for the regular guy.

toasterlovin 8y ago
From my reading of right wing media, it seems like terrorism and immigration are much larger contributors to the rise of nationalism.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I am not that much into conspiracy but I think economic anger and pain is being redirected against "others" by powerful people. Trump is a good example for this. Same in silicon valley. Instead of going against income inequality people talk about diversity, LGBT and other things that don't threaten the power and income of the owning class.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    I don't think working class people actually care that much about income inequality. But I do think they care about competing for jobs with people who don't even speak the native language. And I do think they care when they see things on the shelves at Walmart which are now made in China, but which used to be made at the local factory. FWIW. Just my read on the situation.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      I think they care about feeling secure in their life. I think most people do that. In the current economy they don't feel secure so you can explain that with foreigners, capitalists or something else.
  - nemo44x 8y ago
    I'm not into conspiracies either but just follow the money. Who is endowing universities with billions of dollars? And what types of social issues / humanities do these universities teach to kids and which ones due they tend to ignore?
- _jal 8y ago
  If you're economically trapped in a precarious position, shouting about immigration and terrorism (by the Other) is far more effective at scaring people into falling in line. It is lifeboat "reasoning" at the tribe level.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    The issues the working class has with large scale immigration are legitimate. Econ 101: adding more supply of some thing (labor) will reduce the price of that thing (wages).
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      Another econ 101: some group taking an increasing share of a more or less fixed pie will cause others to get less.
      - toasterlovin 8y ago
        They're separate issues. It is not coherent to argue that one problem isn't a problem because another problem exists.
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        You are 100% right. What I tried to say is that some powerful people are trying to channel economic anxiety into explanations that don't threaten their own power. Being angry about immigration or diversity doesn't really threaten billionaires but being angry about inequality does. So of several problems the propaganda machine picks the most convenient.
    - munificent 8y ago
      > Econ 101: adding more supply of some thing (labor) will reduce the price of that thing (wages). Econ 201: Immigrants are consumers too. Adding more demand for some thing (consumers of products) will increase the price of that thing (wages of producers). Almost everyone agrees that growing the economy is good. When a child is born, we don't lament how that infant will be driving down wages when they reach adulthood. There is nothing different about immigrants. They are full participants in all sides of the economy. The real reason that immigrants are a threat to American workers is because they will accept shittier jobs. They drive down quality of the average job because they are more willing to suffer. But that's not a problem with immigrants, it's a problem with our worker protection laws and how they are enforced. Neither immigrants nor non-immigrants should have to pee in cups to avoid leaving the assembly line, work full time without benefits, have unreported workplace-caused injuries, etc.

mc32 8y ago

It’s from the opinion column. Not sure of his economics credentials. So take it for what it is, an opinion piece.

larrik 8y ago
Reading further into the article, this wasn't my only "wait, what?" moment...

sillyquiet 8y ago

While I get where you are coming from I would argue (and anybody alive and paying attention to the region during the 1990s would likely agree) that 9/11 was a symptom of the ongoing issues in the Middle-East (largely due to fallout from colonization and Cold War politics), and not a causal event. That is not to say the response to 9/11 didn't throw gasoline on the fire.

massysett 8y ago
You could say the exact same thing about the financial crisis when it comes to being a symptom rather than a causal event.

qaq 8y ago

That would be fairly US centric view there are a lot of countries that were not touched by 9/11 but very few (if any) not affected by the financial crisis.

toasterlovin 8y ago
I think the argument would be that 9/11 has had follow on effects on global politics.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jpollock 8y ago

The financial crisis had a broader reach around the world than 9/11 did. 9/11 made it harder for me to fly, but the financial crisis cost friends jobs.

randomdata 8y ago
I would say that losing a job is better than being bombed (in reference to the wars mentioned by the parent). Naturally, it all depends on your perspective. If you were in a safe nation, then losing a job is a big deal. Of course, the financial criss was a financial crisis because all of the money poured into tech and commodities and not much else. Given the tech-focused nature of this site, our perspective is going to be skewed by that time being one of the most prosperous periods ever (the late 90s probably has it beat).
scotty79 8y ago
9/11 main impact is cementing USA image as unlikable, cowardly, irrational jerk of a country that can happily ignore international community and start two wars (three, if you count fake "war on terrorism") because of one random act of vioilent human stupidity. Global cultural impact of 9/11 and what followed is huge. And crisis... You can always make more money.
- jartelt 8y ago
  Many people in the US never travel internationally and don't really follow international politics. If you are from the states stay within the states, why would you care if other countries think the US is a bully and a jerk? Outside of knowing someone who went to war after 9/11, 9/11 probably didn't affect your day to day much after a year or two. I imagine this is the case for many people in the midwest and south. If you were a factory worker in Indiana, it probably hurt a lot to lose your job in the recession and see your home value plummet. If you were supposed to retire in 2008, you also saw your 401k plummet as well. You may not have even fully recovered your net worth at this point. That would be something that weighs on you everyday.
  - 8y ago

sonnyblarney 8y ago

9/11 didn't really spawn ISIL either. ISIL is really a function of the Arab spring, spawned by a general popular Arab uprising, which was spawned by a singular uprising in Tunisia, spawned by a single man committing suicide, spawned by Manning's blind cable releases. The financial crises was global, and nearly brought the American economic system down, I don't think people realize how close we came to serious disaster. The President handed out 1 Trillion dollars in 'magic dollars' to quelch the system it was crazy. It affected everyone in the world. Almost every American was directly affected. 9/11 surely the biggest geopolitical event.

dajohnson89 8y ago
>spawned by Manning's blind cable releases. Genuinely curious, do you have any good sources that explain how the cable releases triggered this set of events? I understand that Manning/Assange have jeopardized some US intelligence efforts (and lives), but not aware of any greater fallout beyond a handful of compromised operations and deaths (no small feat, but smaller than ISIL).
- _jal 8y ago
  I'm going to have to see some more flesh on those bones, too. This is a curiously strong claim about bright-line causality in a very large, very messy series of events with many actors.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    The leaks 'lit' the Arab Spring which had a lot of momentum, and ISIL is an artifact of the Arab Spring. Obviously conditions were there. The later is not in much dispute, the former just not more widely known. https://psmag.com/news/tunisian-activist-describes-mannings-leaks-helped-topple-dictator-65243 https://psmag.com/news/tunisian-activist-describes-mannings-... https://medium.com/@ifikra/chelsea-manning-and-the-arab-spring-1907fec77df1 https://medium.com/@ifikra/chelsea-manning-and-the-arab-spri... http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/wikihistory-did-leaks-inspire-arab-spring http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/wikihistory-did-l...

ArchTypical 8y ago

> I think 9/11 may disagree Only in the US, which is arguable. Every person in the US is affected by the 2008 events every month. 9/11 is hardly a blip in most of the US, outside of the lukewarm media attention about tangentially related eventualities. Americans get very upset when they don't opt-in to risk and end up being exposed to violence unwittingly, but that's life. It's no more or less tragic than when you get diagnosed with cancer. 40k people die in car accidents each year. 5-10k die of a terrorist attack almost 20 years ago. It's immoral to worship one single tragedy that pales in comparison to those ongoing. I live with the solace that those who are born after 9/11 will have a saner perspective.

seppin 8y ago

"wars and ISIL" are a big deal for the < 1% (0.4) of Americans serving in the military, and for the people living in these countries dealing with armed insurgencies, but 2008 had an impact on hundreds of millions of Americans beyond taking off their shoes at airports.