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That is one of the interesting things about all this - but there are also much easier ways to do false flag operations. The evidence of this and previous assas

by neffy 8y ago

That is one of the interesting things about all this - but there are also much easier ways to do false flag operations. The evidence of this and previous assassination attempts is either there´s some idiot at the top of Soviet intelligence who just has to be creative, or far more likely the whole point is to send a very public message to the rather large Russian diaspora, that no matter how far they run, Mother Russia is looking over their shoulder. For that purpose, a quiet inconspicuous assassination would be totally pointless.

azangru 8y ago
Wow, so what you are basically saying is that the Russians intended this assassination to be discovered and demonstrated to be a poisoning attack?
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. The "cover" story is comically poor, and they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better. So short of Putin calling a press conference saying "Yup, we did it" it couldn't have been telegraphed much clearer.
  - lucozade 8y ago
    I agree. This is by far the most likely rationale. They've basically taken a leaf out of the Mossad playbook. I'm a bit surprised they don't have Shaggy playing in the background during the press conferences.
  - azangru 8y ago
    > they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better Now, that's a very charitable assumption. I am not sure we have any evidence for that :-) > Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. But that would mean that they were provoking the Western countries to give them hell. I am the first to admit that I do not hold their intellectual powers in any high esteem, but even so, even for them, this sounds outrageously insolent and stupid.
    - neffy 8y ago
      No, I would gently submit that they are provoking Western media to give them lots, and lots, of free publicity. Western countries are not going to give Russia any kind of hell that Russia´s rulers will really care about. Russia is a major gas and oil supplier to the entire of Western Europe.
    - foldr 8y ago
      >But that would mean that they were provoking the Western countries to give them hell Gee, you think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru... Putin clearly has no problem with the idea of provoking Western countries.
      - azangru 8y ago
        Crimea is really very much of a corner case. First, it's not in a Western country. Second, the annexation happened soon after the Ukranian revolution, which made the legitimacy of the Ukranian government (and the very status of the Ukranian state) at that point uncertain. Third, there were various historical and political considerations muddying the issue (Crimea was given to the Ukraine by the head of the USSR only about a generation ago, and there was a general feeling of a historical injustice done by this act; there was a large Russian population in Crimea; and the revolutionary Ukraine was markedly nationalistic and anti-Russian, which probably pushed a large portion of the Russian-speaking Crimean population into the embrace of Russia). Smuggling a military-grade poison in Britain is quite a different matter.
        foldr 8y ago
        The invasion of Crimea is a much bigger deal that the Skripal poisoning. Russia clearly isn't afraid of "provoking" Western countries.
        azangru 8y ago
        Why is it a bigger deal? It could have been a bigger deal if Ukraine were a member of NATO, and the alliance had an obligation to respond. But as the things stand, why is it a big deal — for the US, the UK, Germany, France, etc.? (Skripals poisoning, in contrast, would imply a special operation on the soil of a sovereign Western country, using the tabooed chemical weapons. A concrete, old-school, physical action, as opposed to the more abstract propaganda wars or some shady online activities.)
wruza 8y ago
To do what you describe they simply send guys from a well-known ‘republic’, which is all green light on any crime you have in your russian crime book. All russians understand this language, and there is no reason to use wmds for that. If it was a message, it must be very secret language of selected few, not for a diaspora. I really doubt that there is a thing like ‘looking over their shoulder’ since what’s the reason for that? Why not just look over all shoulders? The fact that no one understands (or asks himself) how these irrational political actions take place at all shows that they are smarter than you may think. Or that they are just complete idiots. Choose your enemy and good luck with that. Or don’t and stay aware. But let’s not be fooled by politics, I already feel from these hn discussions how russians are more and more viewed as monkeys with grenades and even if it wasn’t a someones goal, it was totally reached. As if it was a shame being russian, politics excluded. I’m deeply offended by this ignorance, vot.

by neffy 8y ago

azangru 8y ago

Wow, so what you are basically saying is that the Russians intended this assassination to be discovered and demonstrated to be a poisoning attack?

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. The "cover" story is comically poor, and they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better. So short of Putin calling a press conference saying "Yup, we did it" it couldn't have been telegraphed much clearer.
- lucozade 8y ago
  I agree. This is by far the most likely rationale. They've basically taken a leaf out of the Mossad playbook. I'm a bit surprised they don't have Shaggy playing in the background during the press conferences.
- azangru 8y ago
  > they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better Now, that's a very charitable assumption. I am not sure we have any evidence for that :-) > Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. But that would mean that they were provoking the Western countries to give them hell. I am the first to admit that I do not hold their intellectual powers in any high esteem, but even so, even for them, this sounds outrageously insolent and stupid.
  - neffy 8y ago
    No, I would gently submit that they are provoking Western media to give them lots, and lots, of free publicity. Western countries are not going to give Russia any kind of hell that Russia´s rulers will really care about. Russia is a major gas and oil supplier to the entire of Western Europe.
  - foldr 8y ago
    >But that would mean that they were provoking the Western countries to give them hell Gee, you think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru... Putin clearly has no problem with the idea of provoking Western countries.
    - azangru 8y ago
      Crimea is really very much of a corner case. First, it's not in a Western country. Second, the annexation happened soon after the Ukranian revolution, which made the legitimacy of the Ukranian government (and the very status of the Ukranian state) at that point uncertain. Third, there were various historical and political considerations muddying the issue (Crimea was given to the Ukraine by the head of the USSR only about a generation ago, and there was a general feeling of a historical injustice done by this act; there was a large Russian population in Crimea; and the revolutionary Ukraine was markedly nationalistic and anti-Russian, which probably pushed a large portion of the Russian-speaking Crimean population into the embrace of Russia). Smuggling a military-grade poison in Britain is quite a different matter.
      - foldr 8y ago
        The invasion of Crimea is a much bigger deal that the Skripal poisoning. Russia clearly isn't afraid of "provoking" Western countries.
        azangru 8y ago
        Why is it a bigger deal? It could have been a bigger deal if Ukraine were a member of NATO, and the alliance had an obligation to respond. But as the things stand, why is it a big deal — for the US, the UK, Germany, France, etc.? (Skripals poisoning, in contrast, would imply a special operation on the soil of a sovereign Western country, using the tabooed chemical weapons. A concrete, old-school, physical action, as opposed to the more abstract propaganda wars or some shady online activities.)

wruza 8y ago

To do what you describe they simply send guys from a well-known ‘republic’, which is all green light on any crime you have in your russian crime book. All russians understand this language, and there is no reason to use wmds for that. If it was a message, it must be very secret language of selected few, not for a diaspora. I really doubt that there is a thing like ‘looking over their shoulder’ since what’s the reason for that? Why not just look over all shoulders? The fact that no one understands (or asks himself) how these irrational political actions take place at all shows that they are smarter than you may think. Or that they are just complete idiots. Choose your enemy and good luck with that. Or don’t and stay aware. But let’s not be fooled by politics, I already feel from these hn discussions how russians are more and more viewed as monkeys with grenades and even if it wasn’t a someones goal, it was totally reached. As if it was a shame being russian, politics excluded. I’m deeply offended by this ignorance, vot.