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Yeah, we, Russians, are so stupid so decided to kill the guy who was in our prison several years ago (why did not we do that then?) with a top Soviet chemical w

Yeah, we, Russians, are so stupid so decided to kill the guy who was in our prison several years ago (why did not we do that then?) with a top Soviet chemical weapon which is like droping a nuclear bomb to kill a single person. There is a information war happening to desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more.

beatlebum 8y ago
You chose the wrong pill my friend
- AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
  I don't take pills, I live here and all the Skripal story is looking like a bullshit to me, that's my point of view so you can see not only what your mass media is feeding you. Russia is gaining power and other countries don't want that, so come up with ideas to blame Russia in all sins.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Russia is gaining power China is a rising power. Russia is a moderately-sized (between New York and Florida in GDP [1]) regional power and petrostate with shaky finances. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._stat...
    - AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
      First, I did not say we are on top, but we do gain. Second, power is not only econimics, but politics and power to stand against external threats and protect our people.
      - throwaway-hn123 8y ago
        Fuck off back to your state sponsored troll farm.
      - megous 8y ago
        I wonder what threats Russia faces from the west?
        azangru 8y ago
        I wonder as well. But for one reason or other they tend to regard eastward NATO expansion as a threat. :shrug:
        megous 8y ago
        It's probably the good old distraction technique. As long as there's an external enemy, the internal enemies of the people (corrupt government) is spared some pressure. Also military needs to be fed (both litarally at soldier level and metaphorically the corrupt officials, and arms suppliers), so unless you have some "enemy", it's hard to justify all the large training and expenditures. I'm sure awarding contracts is also good way to siphon out some public money for Kremlin's cronies.
  - pwned1 8y ago
    Why not "gain power" in a constructive way that benefits humanity, instead of always taking the side of tyrants and dictators?
    - AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
      If you are talking about Bashar al-Assad - he is officially elected president by the people in his country. I would not call him dictator. Only western people sitting on the other side of the planet know better who is the best leader for the people in other countries, lol. Sorry I can't post anymore cause I had so many votes agains my opinion.
neffy 8y ago
That is one of the interesting things about all this - but there are also much easier ways to do false flag operations. The evidence of this and previous assassination attempts is either there´s some idiot at the top of Soviet intelligence who just has to be creative, or far more likely the whole point is to send a very public message to the rather large Russian diaspora, that no matter how far they run, Mother Russia is looking over their shoulder. For that purpose, a quiet inconspicuous assassination would be totally pointless.
- azangru 8y ago
  Wow, so what you are basically saying is that the Russians intended this assassination to be discovered and demonstrated to be a poisoning attack?
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. The "cover" story is comically poor, and they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better. So short of Putin calling a press conference saying "Yup, we did it" it couldn't have been telegraphed much clearer.
    - lucozade 8y ago
      I agree. This is by far the most likely rationale. They've basically taken a leaf out of the Mossad playbook. I'm a bit surprised they don't have Shaggy playing in the background during the press conferences.
    - azangru 8y ago
      > they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better Now, that's a very charitable assumption. I am not sure we have any evidence for that :-) > Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. But that would mean that they were provoking the Western countries to give them hell. I am the first to admit that I do not hold their intellectual powers in any high esteem, but even so, even for them, this sounds outrageously insolent and stupid.
megous 8y ago
Why not use chemical weapons? Kim's brother was assassinated by VX for example. So it's not really out of character for autocrats. Chemical weapons are easy to use in quantities that ensure limited effect.
- AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
  Much easier and quiet way is to find a criminal guy who would kill Skripal for money and make it look like a robbery.
  - megous 8y ago
    Depends on the goal. I don't think you can assume it was just to get rid of the person.
    - huhtenberg 8y ago
      But that's the thing. There's no clear reason for Russians to so publicly go after this guy. They gain absolutely nothing from it. Whatever the "message" this was supposed to send, it's unclear.
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        > Whatever the "message" this was supposed to send, it's unclear Large numbers of former KGB and FSB agents live outside Russia. These well-publicised killings send a clear message to them about the consequences of spilling—or threatening to spill—Putin’s beans.
        huhtenberg 8y ago
        Yeah, that's the TV line. This guy lived quietly in the UK and had no "Putin's beans" to spill. He did blow cover of several hundred Russian agents, but he did time for that in Russia and then he was exchanged. It is possible it was a long-delayed payback from the GRU, but, again, there is no reason for it to be made that publicly. He could've choked on a pound coin and everyone who needed to know would've gotten the message. But the way it stands, the only discernible message here is "don't do any more spy exchanges with Russia".
trhway 8y ago
>which is like droping a nuclear bomb to kill a single person check that. Litvinenko. Basically minimal possible weapon of nuclear kind. Leaving no doubts who did it. That is the point. An unmistakable publicly visible signature so nobody would have any doubts who did it, and all that without need to publicly take responsibility. Like with Nemtsov - killed right in the view from Putin's office. No need to claim responsibility while everybody clearly understands who did it. >There is a information war happening to desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more. The "information war" goes non-stop in the world, and Russia is far from being the only target or participant. The only thing we hear from Russia is that non-stop whining.
Grue3 8y ago
>desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more Russia Today does that by itself just fine.
- AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
  One may or may not like what another person is talking. If you don't like what others a speaking of that's not the reason to make them shut up. But RT is forced to close is UK and US. "Democracy" in action.
  - objectivetruth 8y ago
    RT is forced to close by the US government? Citation, please?
azangru 8y ago
> why did not we do that then? I think this logic is backwards. The question of why the Russians did not kill Skripal back then has no place in establishing whether they attempted to kill him now. The question should not be why did they not kill him then, but rather why did they try to do it now (if indeed it was them who did it). As for the information war (aka propaganda), I think that's pretty obvious (only Russia is not an innocent victim here, but also a warring party).
lucozade 8y ago
> why did not we do that then? Because that would have been stupid. Why kill a spy when you can exchange him for your spies and then kill him. Which is what they (almost) did. Quite sensible really in a "fuck you world" kind of way.
- AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
  Makes sense in some way. But why "Novichok" did not work then, if it is so scary super-duper chemical weapon? Both of the victims are cured. Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok form the beginning, how did they came up to know that is is Novichok without having the formula? If anyone can have that formula to compare or to detect that poison, is there any evidence that it was originally produced by Russia?
  - lucozade 8y ago
    > why "Novichok" did not work It did, it just didn't kill Sergei Skripal which was clearly the intent. > Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok I haven't done a exhaustive analysis of all western media but the bit of western media I read didn't say that. What they said initially was that it was a nerve agent. Then, after analysis in the UK, they said it was Novichok but couldn't confirm the source. Then after international analysis, particularly at a lab in Switzerland but also others, they did confirm the source. No-one knowledgeable is saying that only Russia has the formula because it's not true. Novichok isn't especially new, it was developed decades ago by the Soviet Union to get around NATO NBC gear. That's pretty well documented. The fact that Novichok was used isn't what makes the labs believe it was Russian origin. It's the specific composition that makes them sure. Even then, that wouldn't necessarily mean it was Russian administered. It's all the other evidence that points there.
    - AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
      They had hundreds quiet of ways to kill Sergey. What is "specific composition", how did they know that it was specific to Russia? All this is too easy to fake and blame anyone, make that a reason to put sanctions against the country and convert it to evil in eyes of all, at least even from this forum I notice that.
golergka 8y ago
From my first-hard experience of incompetence and incoordination of different Russian intelligence agencies and branches (mostly internal, though) - yes, "we" are that stupid. Aggressive, resourceful, but stupid indeed.
- AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
  Calling some person a "spy" without any investigation is stupid as well. As we all know Skripal in not a spy for a long time (former - maybe), but he was called "Russian Spy" from the beginning of all this story. Bullshit all over the place.

beatlebum 8y ago

You chose the wrong pill my friend

AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
I don't take pills, I live here and all the Skripal story is looking like a bullshit to me, that's my point of view so you can see not only what your mass media is feeding you. Russia is gaining power and other countries don't want that, so come up with ideas to blame Russia in all sins.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Russia is gaining power China is a rising power. Russia is a moderately-sized (between New York and Florida in GDP [1]) regional power and petrostate with shaky finances. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._stat...
  - AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
    First, I did not say we are on top, but we do gain. Second, power is not only econimics, but politics and power to stand against external threats and protect our people.
    - throwaway-hn123 8y ago
      Fuck off back to your state sponsored troll farm.
    - megous 8y ago
      I wonder what threats Russia faces from the west?
      - azangru 8y ago
        I wonder as well. But for one reason or other they tend to regard eastward NATO expansion as a threat. :shrug:
        megous 8y ago
        It's probably the good old distraction technique. As long as there's an external enemy, the internal enemies of the people (corrupt government) is spared some pressure. Also military needs to be fed (both litarally at soldier level and metaphorically the corrupt officials, and arms suppliers), so unless you have some "enemy", it's hard to justify all the large training and expenditures. I'm sure awarding contracts is also good way to siphon out some public money for Kremlin's cronies.
- pwned1 8y ago
  Why not "gain power" in a constructive way that benefits humanity, instead of always taking the side of tyrants and dictators?
  - AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
    If you are talking about Bashar al-Assad - he is officially elected president by the people in his country. I would not call him dictator. Only western people sitting on the other side of the planet know better who is the best leader for the people in other countries, lol. Sorry I can't post anymore cause I had so many votes agains my opinion.

neffy 8y ago

That is one of the interesting things about all this - but there are also much easier ways to do false flag operations. The evidence of this and previous assassination attempts is either there´s some idiot at the top of Soviet intelligence who just has to be creative, or far more likely the whole point is to send a very public message to the rather large Russian diaspora, that no matter how far they run, Mother Russia is looking over their shoulder. For that purpose, a quiet inconspicuous assassination would be totally pointless.

azangru 8y ago
Wow, so what you are basically saying is that the Russians intended this assassination to be discovered and demonstrated to be a poisoning attack?
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. The "cover" story is comically poor, and they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better. So short of Putin calling a press conference saying "Yup, we did it" it couldn't have been telegraphed much clearer.
  - lucozade 8y ago
    I agree. This is by far the most likely rationale. They've basically taken a leaf out of the Mossad playbook. I'm a bit surprised they don't have Shaggy playing in the background during the press conferences.
  - azangru 8y ago
    > they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better Now, that's a very charitable assumption. I am not sure we have any evidence for that :-) > Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. But that would mean that they were provoking the Western countries to give them hell. I am the first to admit that I do not hold their intellectual powers in any high esteem, but even so, even for them, this sounds outrageously insolent and stupid.

megous 8y ago

Why not use chemical weapons? Kim's brother was assassinated by VX for example. So it's not really out of character for autocrats. Chemical weapons are easy to use in quantities that ensure limited effect.

AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
Much easier and quiet way is to find a criminal guy who would kill Skripal for money and make it look like a robbery.
- megous 8y ago
  Depends on the goal. I don't think you can assume it was just to get rid of the person.
  - huhtenberg 8y ago
    But that's the thing. There's no clear reason for Russians to so publicly go after this guy. They gain absolutely nothing from it. Whatever the "message" this was supposed to send, it's unclear.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > Whatever the "message" this was supposed to send, it's unclear Large numbers of former KGB and FSB agents live outside Russia. These well-publicised killings send a clear message to them about the consequences of spilling—or threatening to spill—Putin’s beans.
      - huhtenberg 8y ago
        Yeah, that's the TV line. This guy lived quietly in the UK and had no "Putin's beans" to spill. He did blow cover of several hundred Russian agents, but he did time for that in Russia and then he was exchanged. It is possible it was a long-delayed payback from the GRU, but, again, there is no reason for it to be made that publicly. He could've choked on a pound coin and everyone who needed to know would've gotten the message. But the way it stands, the only discernible message here is "don't do any more spy exchanges with Russia".

trhway 8y ago

>which is like droping a nuclear bomb to kill a single person check that. Litvinenko. Basically minimal possible weapon of nuclear kind. Leaving no doubts who did it. That is the point. An unmistakable publicly visible signature so nobody would have any doubts who did it, and all that without need to publicly take responsibility. Like with Nemtsov - killed right in the view from Putin's office. No need to claim responsibility while everybody clearly understands who did it. >There is a information war happening to desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more. The "information war" goes non-stop in the world, and Russia is far from being the only target or participant. The only thing we hear from Russia is that non-stop whining.

Grue3 8y ago

>desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more Russia Today does that by itself just fine.

AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
One may or may not like what another person is talking. If you don't like what others a speaking of that's not the reason to make them shut up. But RT is forced to close is UK and US. "Democracy" in action.
- objectivetruth 8y ago
  RT is forced to close by the US government? Citation, please?

azangru 8y ago

> why did not we do that then? I think this logic is backwards. The question of why the Russians did not kill Skripal back then has no place in establishing whether they attempted to kill him now. The question should not be why did they not kill him then, but rather why did they try to do it now (if indeed it was them who did it). As for the information war (aka propaganda), I think that's pretty obvious (only Russia is not an innocent victim here, but also a warring party).

lucozade 8y ago

> why did not we do that then? Because that would have been stupid. Why kill a spy when you can exchange him for your spies and then kill him. Which is what they (almost) did. Quite sensible really in a "fuck you world" kind of way.

AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
Makes sense in some way. But why "Novichok" did not work then, if it is so scary super-duper chemical weapon? Both of the victims are cured. Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok form the beginning, how did they came up to know that is is Novichok without having the formula? If anyone can have that formula to compare or to detect that poison, is there any evidence that it was originally produced by Russia?
- lucozade 8y ago
  > why "Novichok" did not work It did, it just didn't kill Sergei Skripal which was clearly the intent. > Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok I haven't done a exhaustive analysis of all western media but the bit of western media I read didn't say that. What they said initially was that it was a nerve agent. Then, after analysis in the UK, they said it was Novichok but couldn't confirm the source. Then after international analysis, particularly at a lab in Switzerland but also others, they did confirm the source. No-one knowledgeable is saying that only Russia has the formula because it's not true. Novichok isn't especially new, it was developed decades ago by the Soviet Union to get around NATO NBC gear. That's pretty well documented. The fact that Novichok was used isn't what makes the labs believe it was Russian origin. It's the specific composition that makes them sure. Even then, that wouldn't necessarily mean it was Russian administered. It's all the other evidence that points there.
  - AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
    They had hundreds quiet of ways to kill Sergey. What is "specific composition", how did they know that it was specific to Russia? All this is too easy to fake and blame anyone, make that a reason to put sanctions against the country and convert it to evil in eyes of all, at least even from this forum I notice that.

golergka 8y ago

From my first-hard experience of incompetence and incoordination of different Russian intelligence agencies and branches (mostly internal, though) - yes, "we" are that stupid. Aggressive, resourceful, but stupid indeed.

AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
Calling some person a "spy" without any investigation is stupid as well. As we all know Skripal in not a spy for a long time (former - maybe), but he was called "Russian Spy" from the beginning of all this story. Bullshit all over the place.