6 ms·

They weren't spies, they were tourists. We get them all the time here in the UK.

by steveharman 8y ago

raverbashing 8y ago
Just walking around, doing nothing suspicious and carrying nothing special.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Well, carrying whatever some secret service said they were carrying (and which we should take their word for it) in an ongoing effort to revive the Cold War... Perhaps they even had WMDs on them...
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    >> and which we should take their word for it Would you rather distrust the UK secret service and believe whatever the hell Putin is saying? My Russian parents are so happy to listen to Russian television it makes me sick (given the fact that they are Lithuanian citizens since 1991). The question is not whether you should trust UK secret service, but rather - which side are you on? Because the fact is that we'll probably never know anyway, and Russia is happy to monetise on the liberal distrust of the government. After all, Soviets did have a culture of managing the public opinion in their own state.
    - AllegedAlec 8y ago
      Not pointing fingers, but aren't you trying to sow distrust towards the Russians as much as they are towards the UK?
    - jstanley 8y ago
      > which side are you on? There is no need to take a side. It is possible to simultaneously distrust the British spies and the Russian spies.
      - dpwm 8y ago
        The problem is that to be disbelieving the Russian spies requires believing the British spies. To believe the Russian spies (we didn't do it, somebody in the UK is killing Russians, they are liars!) requires disbelieving the British spies (the Russians did it, they're liars!). So it has the property of being believe the British government narrative or you're agreeing with the Russian government, which feels a lot like guilt by similarity of argument. The default position for those who believe in the rule of law is to not believe the British narrative, because they are the accusers and the burden of proof is theirs and they have publicly provided only circumstantial evidence. It's quite a clever trap that many educated people seem to have left unchallenged.
        jstanley 8y ago
        > The problem is that to be disbelieving the Russian spies requires believing the British spies. No it doesn't. It is quite possible that they both lie.
        dpwm 8y ago
        The Russians did it and the Russians didn't do it? The British narrative is the Russians did it. The Russian narrative is they had no part in it. If you disbelieve the Russian narrative, you believe they did have a part in it. It's possible to not believe the British narrative and not care about the Russian narrative because you don't believe they have anything to answer for, but that is altogether different from disbelieving both. For what it's worth I don't believe the British narrative on this because of it is inconsistent with previous versions of itself and the evidence I have personally seen is circumstantial.
    - kushti 8y ago
      Your "logic", basically "choose your side and believe without questioning" is not appropriate for any more or less educated person, I need to say.
      - heavenlyblue 8y ago
        You choose a side based on the environment you support. The fact is that those "educated people" make uneducated disappointed in their own government, and Russia is happy to take advantage of that fact. The problem isn't the truth, the problem is the platform where that truth is practically used against your own system of values.
        kushti 8y ago
        "truth is practically used against your own system of values" - if truth is against the system of "values", the problem is in the system, not the truth.
        azangru 8y ago
        This is a really interesting proposition. So what you are saying is, if your values do not agree with the truth (whatever that might be; I am not sure what you mean here), then so much the worse for the truth? It is not your values that need revising, it is the truth that needs to be ignored?
        megous 8y ago
        Your argument is suffering from being too abstract, I guess. It would help if you used more examples. Many people here are probably not aware of modus operandi of the Putin regime's propaganda and I'm only semi-aware as well. I can see one example of what you're talking about and that is how Putin co-opted some prominent western anti-US-imperialists in service of his own agenda and his own imperial ambitions (setting up permanent bases in other countries, exploiting natural resources by means of war, killing innocent people by thousands, pretty much anything anti-imperialists abhor about the US). Enemy of my enemy... I guess. These people then talk about how Russia was invited by Bashar, or whatever and that makes it ok for it to bomb people there for years - but this is usually unstated, you just sense the implied sense of legitimacy and lack of criticism for Russia. Many of these people have some followers that then repeats their talking points, or defer to their authority.
    - keyme 8y ago
      "which side are you on" == exactly what the guy above said about people like you reviving the cold war. What sides?
      - heavenlyblue 8y ago
        The sides where Russia is happily occupying and destabilizing the regions which were previously under their area of influence. And the fact is that most of the Russian people feel quite nationalistic about their previous "glory", so they'll eat up whatever Putin is doing to them indirectly through NATO sanctions.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >The sides where Russia is happily occupying and destabilizing the regions which were previously under their area of influence So, the sides where Russia has been surrounded by ever closer NATO bases (post cold-war), and those countries are used to put pressure on it, while the news constantly bombard western audiences with "enemy du jour" coverage? Where foreign countries constantly meddle with its internal goings-on (with embargoes, sanctions, supporting opposition parties, funding NGOs and "independent" organizations, and good old "Voice of America" style efforts), to establish friendly lackeys in power like Yeltsin, to sell the country's assets wholesale to them?
    - TomMckenny 8y ago
      His post and the spam of others like it are to invite enough controversy that this story disappears from the front page. And since I was obliged to post to point that out, I'll continue... The UK is _not_ central. So now we instantly distrust the Swiss and Dutch secret services too. Who, we're to believe, framed these fellows yet punished them with nothing more than sending them back to Russia. If Westerners are now going to consistently favor a conspicuously monstrous dictatorship over their own defense mechanisms then their story is over. But now that this story is obviously being killed by abusing the controversy penalty algorithm, I hope the admins use it as a honey pot for locating shills.
      - dpwm 8y ago
        > I hope the admins use it as a honey pot for locating shills. There are shills on all sides.[0] Many of the people you are calling shills are actually doubtful of the narrative put forward by a security cabal involved in one of the most pervasive and under-handed spying programmes [1]. Part of the reason for this is because that narrative is actually inconsistent with earlier versions of itself. Those who disagree with that narrative are most likely not Russian shills, they may just be able to spot an inconsistent narrative based on evidence drip-fed to the media and refuse to believe it. There are two Russian citizens who are now effectively limited to countries with no extradition treaty with the UK or its allies unless they are willing to face a trial that has no reasonable prospect of being fair. [2] > If Westerners are now going to consistently favor a conspicuously monstrous dictatorship over their own defense mechanisms then their story is over. If Westerners are going to support trial by lynch mob and trial by media with carefully-controlled evidence and a strong hint of xenophobic nationalism and a trust-our-state-sanctioned-murderers attitude then we will be the ones to suffer the consequences as the farce of the "superiority" of "western values" is truly exposed. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Threat_Research_Intellig... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora [2] They have had a trial by media and been found guilty.
        TomMckenny 8y ago
        "Many" genuine people are doubtful of the Swiss and Dutch arrests of Russian spies because the US unethically monitors the Internet? Arrests done solely because Switzerland really wants to start the cold war again? No, actually the pattern generally is to sow such much confusion that people no longer believe anything and end up believing all sides are the same. The pattern here specifically is to get the story of the front page which was successful.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - AndyMcConachie 8y ago
    "Perhaps they even had WMDs on them..." I downvoted you for this. That isn't suggested anywhere and there are enough unsubstantiated accusations flying around without people starting a few more.
    - jstanley 8y ago
      He wasn't suggesting that they actually had WMDs on them. He was drawing parallels to a high-profile previous instance of government officials lying about "enemies" in an effort to create support for wars that further their own ends. But I think you knew that.
      - yAnonymous 8y ago
        He did however suggest that the UK, Dutch and Swiss agencies can't be trusted in this case, which is beyond laughable. It implies that another actor would have tried to kill former Russian agents and UK citizens with a chemical weapon. Why would anyone in the west go to such lengths to frame Russia in this? It'd be like kicking a kid that's on the ground. They have nothing to gain from it. Adding to that, the bluntness and stupidity of these operations fits the style of Russian agencies very well. They don't seem to be very good at covert operations anymore as they failed to adapt to modern technology.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >He did however suggest that the UK, Dutch and Swiss agencies can't be trusted in this case, which is beyond laughable. Yeah, because agencies and especially of good old colonial powers like UK and Dutch have historically been very trustable, and not at all working to promote the interests of their states (with lies, covert action, false flag operations, and so on) >It implies that another actor would have tried to kill former Russian agents and UK citizens with a chemical weapon. Yeah, nobody does false flags ever. A more plausible explanation is that Putin waited 12 years to kill the guy, long after he was out of Russia (where they could have gotten to him far more easily), and from 2000 other ways to kill someone they chose something that's the equivalent of living their business card on the murder scene...
  - tim333 8y ago
    Who knows if they were carrying anything. The Novichoc bottle probably just magicked itself to Sailsbury and they were just GRU agents with passport numbers differing by one digit on a happy holiday to see the Cathedral twice. Or maybe not.
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
      Of course they had to make a second trip. They had to abandon the first trip because of the knee deep snow. That the Met Office say didn't happen.
      - zipwitch 8y ago
        Well, Russians are completely unfamiliar with bad weather. The climate in Russia is always balmy, so their not used to dealing with chilly weather.
- goodmachine 8y ago
  Almost certainly. My guess is that they were innocent geometry fans, visiting 'Escher in het Paleis' - a permanent exhibition of the works of Maurits Cornelis Escher located in a former Royal palace. It's pretty cool. https://www.holland.com/global/tourism/destinations/the-hague/museums/escher-in-the-palace.htm https://www.holland.com/global/tourism/destinations/the-hagu...
  - yread 8y ago
    Ah yes! It's famous not just in Europe, but in the whole world!
expathacker 8y ago
Perhaps they were just there to discuss adoptions?
bryanlarsen 8y ago
Note for those who don't get the sarcasm: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/13/russian-explanation-skripal-suspects-tourists-insults-publics/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/13/russian-explanat...
MichaelMoser123 8y ago
How did the spys manage to avoid poisening themselve with the nerve agent in the process? Did they walk around in a protective suite? That might have raised some suspicions...
- foldr 8y ago
  By keeping it in a sealed container. A nerve agent that could only be handled by someone wearing a protective suit wouldn't be very practical.
  - MichaelMoser123 8y ago
    But they were spraying the aerosol around when they pressed the button. Are they some kind of robots who are immune to the stuff?
    - foldr 8y ago
      They sprayed it on the door handle. Being careful not to inhale would probably be sufficient. It's not a risk I'd be willing to take, but those guys were not in a risk free profession.
    - trhway 8y ago
      check out the killing of the Kim's brother couple years ago - 2 girls just sprayed innocent chemicals on him in public at airport, and the resulting mix of these chemicals on his face is what killed him.
- baybal2 8y ago
  Novicek was likely prepared on site, the two constituent chemicals are inert till until mixed.
  - MichaelMoser123 8y ago
    When North Koreans agents killed with nerve agent they had two persons each spraying a single component separately. That makes much more sense than having a single bottle where anyone touching the bottle would likely get killed.
myth_drannon 8y ago
Since Salisbury is the LGBT capital of UK, these were two friendly family guys on vacation... ehh, wait a sec, so they are... ? You know... That's the current narrative Russian TV is trying to push.
- lucozade 8y ago
  If the Russian gay community start popping over for holidays in Salisbury, they're going to be mightily disappointed [0]. [0] http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/15816425.City_s_only_gay_bar_closes_its_doors/ http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/15816425.City_s_only_...
- grkvlt 8y ago
  > Salisbury is the LGBT capital of UK Firstly, I think Brighton and Hove[0] would have something to say about that. Secondly, this is 2018, and it's quite alright to be gay these days! 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_community_of_Brighton_and_Hove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_community_of_Brighton_and...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

They weren't spies, they were tourists. We get them all the time here in the UK.

raverbashing 8y ago

Just walking around, doing nothing suspicious and carrying nothing special.

coldtea 8y ago
Well, carrying whatever some secret service said they were carrying (and which we should take their word for it) in an ongoing effort to revive the Cold War... Perhaps they even had WMDs on them...
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  >> and which we should take their word for it Would you rather distrust the UK secret service and believe whatever the hell Putin is saying? My Russian parents are so happy to listen to Russian television it makes me sick (given the fact that they are Lithuanian citizens since 1991). The question is not whether you should trust UK secret service, but rather - which side are you on? Because the fact is that we'll probably never know anyway, and Russia is happy to monetise on the liberal distrust of the government. After all, Soviets did have a culture of managing the public opinion in their own state.
  - AllegedAlec 8y ago
    Not pointing fingers, but aren't you trying to sow distrust towards the Russians as much as they are towards the UK?
  - jstanley 8y ago
    > which side are you on? There is no need to take a side. It is possible to simultaneously distrust the British spies and the Russian spies.
    - dpwm 8y ago
      The problem is that to be disbelieving the Russian spies requires believing the British spies. To believe the Russian spies (we didn't do it, somebody in the UK is killing Russians, they are liars!) requires disbelieving the British spies (the Russians did it, they're liars!). So it has the property of being believe the British government narrative or you're agreeing with the Russian government, which feels a lot like guilt by similarity of argument. The default position for those who believe in the rule of law is to not believe the British narrative, because they are the accusers and the burden of proof is theirs and they have publicly provided only circumstantial evidence. It's quite a clever trap that many educated people seem to have left unchallenged.
      - jstanley 8y ago
        > The problem is that to be disbelieving the Russian spies requires believing the British spies. No it doesn't. It is quite possible that they both lie.
        dpwm 8y ago
        The Russians did it and the Russians didn't do it? The British narrative is the Russians did it. The Russian narrative is they had no part in it. If you disbelieve the Russian narrative, you believe they did have a part in it. It's possible to not believe the British narrative and not care about the Russian narrative because you don't believe they have anything to answer for, but that is altogether different from disbelieving both. For what it's worth I don't believe the British narrative on this because of it is inconsistent with previous versions of itself and the evidence I have personally seen is circumstantial.
  - kushti 8y ago
    Your "logic", basically "choose your side and believe without questioning" is not appropriate for any more or less educated person, I need to say.
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      You choose a side based on the environment you support. The fact is that those "educated people" make uneducated disappointed in their own government, and Russia is happy to take advantage of that fact. The problem isn't the truth, the problem is the platform where that truth is practically used against your own system of values.
      - kushti 8y ago
        "truth is practically used against your own system of values" - if truth is against the system of "values", the problem is in the system, not the truth.
      - azangru 8y ago
        This is a really interesting proposition. So what you are saying is, if your values do not agree with the truth (whatever that might be; I am not sure what you mean here), then so much the worse for the truth? It is not your values that need revising, it is the truth that needs to be ignored?
      - megous 8y ago
        Your argument is suffering from being too abstract, I guess. It would help if you used more examples. Many people here are probably not aware of modus operandi of the Putin regime's propaganda and I'm only semi-aware as well. I can see one example of what you're talking about and that is how Putin co-opted some prominent western anti-US-imperialists in service of his own agenda and his own imperial ambitions (setting up permanent bases in other countries, exploiting natural resources by means of war, killing innocent people by thousands, pretty much anything anti-imperialists abhor about the US). Enemy of my enemy... I guess. These people then talk about how Russia was invited by Bashar, or whatever and that makes it ok for it to bomb people there for years - but this is usually unstated, you just sense the implied sense of legitimacy and lack of criticism for Russia. Many of these people have some followers that then repeats their talking points, or defer to their authority.
  - keyme 8y ago
    "which side are you on" == exactly what the guy above said about people like you reviving the cold war. What sides?
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      The sides where Russia is happily occupying and destabilizing the regions which were previously under their area of influence. And the fact is that most of the Russian people feel quite nationalistic about their previous "glory", so they'll eat up whatever Putin is doing to them indirectly through NATO sanctions.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >The sides where Russia is happily occupying and destabilizing the regions which were previously under their area of influence So, the sides where Russia has been surrounded by ever closer NATO bases (post cold-war), and those countries are used to put pressure on it, while the news constantly bombard western audiences with "enemy du jour" coverage? Where foreign countries constantly meddle with its internal goings-on (with embargoes, sanctions, supporting opposition parties, funding NGOs and "independent" organizations, and good old "Voice of America" style efforts), to establish friendly lackeys in power like Yeltsin, to sell the country's assets wholesale to them?
  - TomMckenny 8y ago
    His post and the spam of others like it are to invite enough controversy that this story disappears from the front page. And since I was obliged to post to point that out, I'll continue... The UK is _not_ central. So now we instantly distrust the Swiss and Dutch secret services too. Who, we're to believe, framed these fellows yet punished them with nothing more than sending them back to Russia. If Westerners are now going to consistently favor a conspicuously monstrous dictatorship over their own defense mechanisms then their story is over. But now that this story is obviously being killed by abusing the controversy penalty algorithm, I hope the admins use it as a honey pot for locating shills.
    - dpwm 8y ago
      > I hope the admins use it as a honey pot for locating shills. There are shills on all sides.[0] Many of the people you are calling shills are actually doubtful of the narrative put forward by a security cabal involved in one of the most pervasive and under-handed spying programmes [1]. Part of the reason for this is because that narrative is actually inconsistent with earlier versions of itself. Those who disagree with that narrative are most likely not Russian shills, they may just be able to spot an inconsistent narrative based on evidence drip-fed to the media and refuse to believe it. There are two Russian citizens who are now effectively limited to countries with no extradition treaty with the UK or its allies unless they are willing to face a trial that has no reasonable prospect of being fair. [2] > If Westerners are now going to consistently favor a conspicuously monstrous dictatorship over their own defense mechanisms then their story is over. If Westerners are going to support trial by lynch mob and trial by media with carefully-controlled evidence and a strong hint of xenophobic nationalism and a trust-our-state-sanctioned-murderers attitude then we will be the ones to suffer the consequences as the farce of the "superiority" of "western values" is truly exposed. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Threat_Research_Intelligence_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Threat_Research_Intellig... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora [2] They have had a trial by media and been found guilty.
      - TomMckenny 8y ago
        "Many" genuine people are doubtful of the Swiss and Dutch arrests of Russian spies because the US unethically monitors the Internet? Arrests done solely because Switzerland really wants to start the cold war again? No, actually the pattern generally is to sow such much confusion that people no longer believe anything and end up believing all sides are the same. The pattern here specifically is to get the story of the front page which was successful.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- AndyMcConachie 8y ago
  "Perhaps they even had WMDs on them..." I downvoted you for this. That isn't suggested anywhere and there are enough unsubstantiated accusations flying around without people starting a few more.
  - jstanley 8y ago
    He wasn't suggesting that they actually had WMDs on them. He was drawing parallels to a high-profile previous instance of government officials lying about "enemies" in an effort to create support for wars that further their own ends. But I think you knew that.
    - yAnonymous 8y ago
      He did however suggest that the UK, Dutch and Swiss agencies can't be trusted in this case, which is beyond laughable. It implies that another actor would have tried to kill former Russian agents and UK citizens with a chemical weapon. Why would anyone in the west go to such lengths to frame Russia in this? It'd be like kicking a kid that's on the ground. They have nothing to gain from it. Adding to that, the bluntness and stupidity of these operations fits the style of Russian agencies very well. They don't seem to be very good at covert operations anymore as they failed to adapt to modern technology.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >He did however suggest that the UK, Dutch and Swiss agencies can't be trusted in this case, which is beyond laughable. Yeah, because agencies and especially of good old colonial powers like UK and Dutch have historically been very trustable, and not at all working to promote the interests of their states (with lies, covert action, false flag operations, and so on) >It implies that another actor would have tried to kill former Russian agents and UK citizens with a chemical weapon. Yeah, nobody does false flags ever. A more plausible explanation is that Putin waited 12 years to kill the guy, long after he was out of Russia (where they could have gotten to him far more easily), and from 2000 other ways to kill someone they chose something that's the equivalent of living their business card on the murder scene...
- tim333 8y ago
  Who knows if they were carrying anything. The Novichoc bottle probably just magicked itself to Sailsbury and they were just GRU agents with passport numbers differing by one digit on a happy holiday to see the Cathedral twice. Or maybe not.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    Of course they had to make a second trip. They had to abandon the first trip because of the knee deep snow. That the Met Office say didn't happen.
    - zipwitch 8y ago
      Well, Russians are completely unfamiliar with bad weather. The climate in Russia is always balmy, so their not used to dealing with chilly weather.
goodmachine 8y ago
Almost certainly. My guess is that they were innocent geometry fans, visiting 'Escher in het Paleis' - a permanent exhibition of the works of Maurits Cornelis Escher located in a former Royal palace. It's pretty cool. https://www.holland.com/global/tourism/destinations/the-hague/museums/escher-in-the-palace.htm https://www.holland.com/global/tourism/destinations/the-hagu...
- yread 8y ago
  Ah yes! It's famous not just in Europe, but in the whole world!

expathacker 8y ago

Perhaps they were just there to discuss adoptions?

bryanlarsen 8y ago

Note for those who don't get the sarcasm: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/13/russian-explanation-skripal-suspects-tourists-insults-publics/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/13/russian-explanat...

MichaelMoser123 8y ago

How did the spys manage to avoid poisening themselve with the nerve agent in the process? Did they walk around in a protective suite? That might have raised some suspicions...

foldr 8y ago
By keeping it in a sealed container. A nerve agent that could only be handled by someone wearing a protective suit wouldn't be very practical.
- MichaelMoser123 8y ago
  But they were spraying the aerosol around when they pressed the button. Are they some kind of robots who are immune to the stuff?
  - foldr 8y ago
    They sprayed it on the door handle. Being careful not to inhale would probably be sufficient. It's not a risk I'd be willing to take, but those guys were not in a risk free profession.
  - trhway 8y ago
    check out the killing of the Kim's brother couple years ago - 2 girls just sprayed innocent chemicals on him in public at airport, and the resulting mix of these chemicals on his face is what killed him.
baybal2 8y ago
Novicek was likely prepared on site, the two constituent chemicals are inert till until mixed.
- MichaelMoser123 8y ago
  When North Koreans agents killed with nerve agent they had two persons each spraying a single component separately. That makes much more sense than having a single bottle where anyone touching the bottle would likely get killed.

myth_drannon 8y ago

Since Salisbury is the LGBT capital of UK, these were two friendly family guys on vacation... ehh, wait a sec, so they are... ? You know... That's the current narrative Russian TV is trying to push.

lucozade 8y ago
If the Russian gay community start popping over for holidays in Salisbury, they're going to be mightily disappointed [0]. [0] http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/15816425.City_s_only_gay_bar_closes_its_doors/ http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/15816425.City_s_only_...
grkvlt 8y ago
> Salisbury is the LGBT capital of UK Firstly, I think Brighton and Hove[0] would have something to say about that. Secondly, this is 2018, and it's quite alright to be gay these days! 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_community_of_Brighton_and_Hove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_community_of_Brighton_and...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]