4 ms·

I must say I am conflicted to write on this subject. On the one hand I am a person who has a humanities background turned to coding (bachelor's on philosophy; m

I must say I am conflicted to write on this subject. On the one hand I am a person who has a humanities background turned to coding (bachelor's on philosophy; master's on sociology) but on the other hand I am burned out now and unwilling to do anything code related thanks to previous employers so my outlook isn't a nice one. The problem I experienced was most of the companies want a bachelor of science or an engineering degree on their job postings. I think this is because the workshop kool-aid has proven ineffective in creating good programmers but rather code workers who are good at menial jobs but unable to provide good solutions. So if a foreign policy major decides to go full on coding by self-teaching skills to himself he'd get slaughtered on job applications, without being able to show his skills on the technical interviews. Secondly, the job politics of most companies are just dreadful. After all those humdrum job interviews, skill tests, certification badgering; what I experienced is writing code that generates a sql query to the parameters that's taken from the frontend which had NOTHING to do with interview questions or the skills demanded by the employer. In sum, I have to emphasize that these are my experiences and maybe limited to where I live and tried to earn my keep by coding. So I hope that it is a local thing and where you live has a better environment when it comes to employing programmers who are outside of the field. Thanks for reading anyway.

blauditore 8y ago
I think the job posting issue is partially related to recruiters not knowing much about technology either, so they stick to "measurable" means like degrees and technologies, even though it's often stupid. Also, job postings are generally optimistic, and you might still have a good chance if you don't meet all requirements. On the other hand, I also thinks it's not ideal for someone with only little software engineering education to aim for a job which is full-on coding. I think those kinds of workshops (or single programming courses) are more useful for jobs where coding is just tangentially a topic, like if you're occasionally creating/maintaining advanced spreadsheet files, or work together with programmers (if you're graphics designer, product manager, or similar).
- QasimK 8y ago
  Surely the team hiring tells the recruiter what the job requirements are, rather than the recruiter just making them up?
  - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
    I've seen recruiters do some really weird stuff, not to mention HR feeling the need to insert themselves into every process, despite their vast unknown-unknowns.
    - blauditore 8y ago
      Yeah, some HR departments seem to have a strong feel for a need of justifying their existence.
dsego 8y ago
A lot of us are, I suspect, in the same boat.
laserBro13Fcali 8y ago
what I experienced is writing code that generates a sql query to the parameters that's taken from the frontend which had NOTHING to do with interview questions Oh, this, this, this. So very much this. The fucking snobbery, and nerd signaling that goes on during a coding interview gets so thick, that sometimes I'll just laugh in someone's face and throw the interview. Hey, hey, buddy, are you cool enough to merge this array, AND sort it? Okay Now implement a linked list and then detect a circular reference. Okay, now reconstruct it as a directed acyclic graph. Okay, but can you do it... ...all in one line???? Solve the travelling salesman problem in 10 seconds or less. Whatsa matter? Never HEARD of it? You call yourself a programmer? Okay, well your ad-hoc pseudocode in this code pen isn't even O(log N) so we can't hire you. I know this because the code pen raised a compiler warning about your include. ...and also suggested this coding challenge to me via auto complete. But yeah, we'll keep your resume on file. Thanks! GTFO of my face. Why even tie my shoes for these interviews. I swear I'm not even bathing or wearing clean clothes to the next one. Oh, but the best is, they want to hire you, but they can't tell you anything about the job until you sign an NDA. Big secrets. Watch out! Then, you look at their stack, and it's all canned open source bullshit, used off the shelf. Like, hello? What are you smoking. Every other shop is using this shit. It's fucking LAMP. It's GPL'd. Okay, fucking sue me with mutant nuclear apocalypse lawyers. You will get: ZERO DOLLARS BECAUSE YOU WILL HAVE FIRED ME FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, AND THIS WAS MY ONLY SOURCE OF FUCKING INCOME. WHAT DOES THIS NDA EVEN ACCOMPLISH? SHALL I SIGN IT IN BLOOD?
- felixarba 8y ago
  Whoah
- saltpeppa 8y ago
  Shoulda paid more attention in school.
- selimthegrim 8y ago
  Another James Mickens throwaway spotted. Ex ungue leonem.
mikekchar 8y ago
I've been programming for the vast majority of my life, professionally for something like 30 years. I've done other jobs as well. My general advice to people thinking of becoming a programmer: Go ahead if you like programming. If not, then there are almost certainly better jobs than this. Don't get me wrong. On paper it's attractive. Quite high salary. Casual dress. Often flexible hours. No heavy lifting. High demand for skilled workers. On the other side: You have to concentrate to a level that most people can't even understand -- and you have to do it all day, every day. Nobody understands what you are doing and most people under appreciate the difficulty (which is actually a huge understatement). Many managers believe that the reason things are going more slowly than they would like is because you don't have enough stress in your life. Unfortunately, the reality is that while you don't have much day to day stress (unless you are are in dev ops), you have ridiculous long term stress. No matter what you are working on, you don't have enough information to do your job. As soon as you learn enough to do your job, the job changes. Your tools change on a yearly, if not monthly basis -- and the amount of learning necessary to get good at your new tools is a full time job in itself. On top of all that, the field is immature to the point that it is likely that every single person on your team has a different way to solve every problem. And they are all convinced that everybody else's solution is crap. And they are all correct (pause to let the implication sink in). You're going to get it wrong almost all the time, and it will take you something like 30 years (if I'm any measure) to realise it. But even when you finally figure something out, nobody will listen to you, because they all think you are wrong (and they are probably correct about that too). It's a terrible job. Only do it if you really, really want to do it. On the other hand, I've known a few people who are able to clock in and clock out, do a competent job, and not get too stressed about stuff. I'm still trying to figure out how they do it.
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  > On the other hand, I've known a few people who are able to clock in and clock out, do a competent job, and not get too stressed about stuff. I'm still trying to figure out how they do it. This is an amazing skill I only learned during a PhD, and only after burning out half way though. Obviously, step 0 is clear boundaries and reasonable work hours. Clock out at 5 or 6 (or 7 or whatever -- point is, put in your 40 hours and leave). After that, things get more difficult. For me, the answer was to work out directly after work (so before the commute home even!) and to listen to an interesting audiobook/podcast during my workout. That way, when I got home, I would have something on my mind other than work. Fortunately, my personality is such that as long as the audiobook/podcast was interesting, that's what I will focus on/think about the rest of the night.
hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
After all those humdrum job interviews, skill tests, certification badgering; what I experienced is writing code that generates a sql query to the parameters that's taken from the frontend which had NOTHING to do with interview questions or the skills demanded by the employer. Back in the mid to late 2000s, I recall seeing and hearing management say, "we just need a few Google-quality engineers". There was this pervasive sentiment that if they could just find good enough software engineers, it would somehow make up for the fact that the company had no leadership or direction. That, combined with the competitive nerd gene, zero objective basis for interview techniques, and an attitude of "any reason to boot this person" rather than "how can this person contribute to our company?" has gotten us to where we are in this toxic industry.

blauditore 8y ago

I think the job posting issue is partially related to recruiters not knowing much about technology either, so they stick to "measurable" means like degrees and technologies, even though it's often stupid. Also, job postings are generally optimistic, and you might still have a good chance if you don't meet all requirements. On the other hand, I also thinks it's not ideal for someone with only little software engineering education to aim for a job which is full-on coding. I think those kinds of workshops (or single programming courses) are more useful for jobs where coding is just tangentially a topic, like if you're occasionally creating/maintaining advanced spreadsheet files, or work together with programmers (if you're graphics designer, product manager, or similar).

QasimK 8y ago
Surely the team hiring tells the recruiter what the job requirements are, rather than the recruiter just making them up?
- hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
  I've seen recruiters do some really weird stuff, not to mention HR feeling the need to insert themselves into every process, despite their vast unknown-unknowns.
  - blauditore 8y ago
    Yeah, some HR departments seem to have a strong feel for a need of justifying their existence.

dsego 8y ago

A lot of us are, I suspect, in the same boat.

laserBro13Fcali 8y ago

what I experienced is writing code that generates a sql query to the parameters that's taken from the frontend which had NOTHING to do with interview questions Oh, this, this, this. So very much this. The fucking snobbery, and nerd signaling that goes on during a coding interview gets so thick, that sometimes I'll just laugh in someone's face and throw the interview. Hey, hey, buddy, are you cool enough to merge this array, AND sort it? Okay Now implement a linked list and then detect a circular reference. Okay, now reconstruct it as a directed acyclic graph. Okay, but can you do it... ...all in one line???? Solve the travelling salesman problem in 10 seconds or less. Whatsa matter? Never HEARD of it? You call yourself a programmer? Okay, well your ad-hoc pseudocode in this code pen isn't even O(log N) so we can't hire you. I know this because the code pen raised a compiler warning about your include. ...and also suggested this coding challenge to me via auto complete. But yeah, we'll keep your resume on file. Thanks! GTFO of my face. Why even tie my shoes for these interviews. I swear I'm not even bathing or wearing clean clothes to the next one. Oh, but the best is, they want to hire you, but they can't tell you anything about the job until you sign an NDA. Big secrets. Watch out! Then, you look at their stack, and it's all canned open source bullshit, used off the shelf. Like, hello? What are you smoking. Every other shop is using this shit. It's fucking LAMP. It's GPL'd. Okay, fucking sue me with mutant nuclear apocalypse lawyers. You will get: ZERO DOLLARS BECAUSE YOU WILL HAVE FIRED ME FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, AND THIS WAS MY ONLY SOURCE OF FUCKING INCOME. WHAT DOES THIS NDA EVEN ACCOMPLISH? SHALL I SIGN IT IN BLOOD?

felixarba 8y ago
Whoah
saltpeppa 8y ago
Shoulda paid more attention in school.
selimthegrim 8y ago
Another James Mickens throwaway spotted. Ex ungue leonem.

mikekchar 8y ago

I've been programming for the vast majority of my life, professionally for something like 30 years. I've done other jobs as well. My general advice to people thinking of becoming a programmer: Go ahead if you like programming. If not, then there are almost certainly better jobs than this. Don't get me wrong. On paper it's attractive. Quite high salary. Casual dress. Often flexible hours. No heavy lifting. High demand for skilled workers. On the other side: You have to concentrate to a level that most people can't even understand -- and you have to do it all day, every day. Nobody understands what you are doing and most people under appreciate the difficulty (which is actually a huge understatement). Many managers believe that the reason things are going more slowly than they would like is because you don't have enough stress in your life. Unfortunately, the reality is that while you don't have much day to day stress (unless you are are in dev ops), you have ridiculous long term stress. No matter what you are working on, you don't have enough information to do your job. As soon as you learn enough to do your job, the job changes. Your tools change on a yearly, if not monthly basis -- and the amount of learning necessary to get good at your new tools is a full time job in itself. On top of all that, the field is immature to the point that it is likely that every single person on your team has a different way to solve every problem. And they are all convinced that everybody else's solution is crap. And they are all correct (pause to let the implication sink in). You're going to get it wrong almost all the time, and it will take you something like 30 years (if I'm any measure) to realise it. But even when you finally figure something out, nobody will listen to you, because they all think you are wrong (and they are probably correct about that too). It's a terrible job. Only do it if you really, really want to do it. On the other hand, I've known a few people who are able to clock in and clock out, do a competent job, and not get too stressed about stuff. I'm still trying to figure out how they do it.

throwawayjava 8y ago
> On the other hand, I've known a few people who are able to clock in and clock out, do a competent job, and not get too stressed about stuff. I'm still trying to figure out how they do it. This is an amazing skill I only learned during a PhD, and only after burning out half way though. Obviously, step 0 is clear boundaries and reasonable work hours. Clock out at 5 or 6 (or 7 or whatever -- point is, put in your 40 hours and leave). After that, things get more difficult. For me, the answer was to work out directly after work (so before the commute home even!) and to listen to an interesting audiobook/podcast during my workout. That way, when I got home, I would have something on my mind other than work. Fortunately, my personality is such that as long as the audiobook/podcast was interesting, that's what I will focus on/think about the rest of the night.

hfdgiutdryg 8y ago

After all those humdrum job interviews, skill tests, certification badgering; what I experienced is writing code that generates a sql query to the parameters that's taken from the frontend which had NOTHING to do with interview questions or the skills demanded by the employer. Back in the mid to late 2000s, I recall seeing and hearing management say, "we just need a few Google-quality engineers". There was this pervasive sentiment that if they could just find good enough software engineers, it would somehow make up for the fact that the company had no leadership or direction. That, combined with the competitive nerd gene, zero objective basis for interview techniques, and an attitude of "any reason to boot this person" rather than "how can this person contribute to our company?" has gotten us to where we are in this toxic industry.