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Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

141 points by yread 8y ago

jack_quack 8y ago
Travel ban Russia
yread 8y ago
Is it related to this? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/30/swiss-lab-analysed-salisbury-nerve-agent-says-targeted-russian/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/30/swiss-lab-analys...
- PeterisP 8y ago
  Yes.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ryanlol 8y ago
Article says detained, not arrested.
- huhtenberg 8y ago
  Swiss newspaper article also says (Google-translated): Why the two were brought back to Russia and not prosecuted in the Netherlands or transferred to Switzerland, neither the Dutch military intelligence nor other requested authorities wanted to explain. It is also unknown what they did in the Netherlands.
  - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
    would you have a link please?
    - huhtenberg 8y ago
      https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/russische-spione-auf-dem-weg-ins-berner-oberland-verhaftet/story/27257777 https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/russische-spione-auf-d... It's the second link from the first paragraph of the HN's submission.
      - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
        thank you!
- beatlebum 8y ago
  Same thing (former police officer here).
- elmo2you 8y ago
  There could be several reasons for not arresting these "spies". First, there might have been just suspicions but no real evidence, something that would make prosecuting these men problematic and also cause a significant diplomatic struggle for the Dutch. Secondly, the evidence itself might expose sources and methods that the Dutch would not like to be exposed in a publicly prosecuted legal case. Third, the NRC article suggests that these individuals might have been two earlier evicted Russian embassy employees, in which case they might even have been immune to arrest. The timing of these allegations are at best suspect. If the allegations are true, it would definitely not look great on Russia. But it might have been about Russia trying to get insight into what they are up against in the whole Novichok debacle. Not nice, but something (m)any governments might try, in a case like this. It should also be noted that Holland is not an impartial party when it comes to Russia. One of Holland's largest companies, Royal Dutch Shell, bought exclusive concession rights (for several decades to come) to natural resources in the Ukraine, most of which became inaccessible to them after the regime change in Kiev and the subsequent separation of Crimea and the eastern part of the country that it triggered. Shell, just as key American players who made similar deals, will not be happy about how events unfolded in the Ukraine. Furthermore, Shell has a substantial leverage within Dutch politics and government. Of course, none of that proves that the Dutch can not be trusted, but it might be wise to at least not blindly believe whatever Russia related news comes from them.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > One of Holland's largest companies, Royal Dutch Shell, bought exclusive concession rights (for several decades to come) to natural resources in the Ukraine, most of which became inaccessible to them after the regime change in Kiev Royal Dutch Shell’s 20% interest in Rosneft [1], a Russian oil company, eclipses the its exposure to Ukraine. This has been a sticking point at every sanctions crossroads, with the Dutch requiring extraordinary evidence before proceeding. [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/general/2014/05/17/just-how-exposed-is-royal-dutch-shell-plc-to-russi.aspx https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/gene...
    - elmo2you 8y ago
steveharman 8y ago
They weren't spies, they were tourists. We get them all the time here in the UK.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  Just walking around, doing nothing suspicious and carrying nothing special.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Well, carrying whatever some secret service said they were carrying (and which we should take their word for it) in an ongoing effort to revive the Cold War... Perhaps they even had WMDs on them...
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      >> and which we should take their word for it Would you rather distrust the UK secret service and believe whatever the hell Putin is saying? My Russian parents are so happy to listen to Russian television it makes me sick (given the fact that they are Lithuanian citizens since 1991). The question is not whether you should trust UK secret service, but rather - which side are you on? Because the fact is that we'll probably never know anyway, and Russia is happy to monetise on the liberal distrust of the government. After all, Soviets did have a culture of managing the public opinion in their own state.
      - AllegedAlec 8y ago
        Not pointing fingers, but aren't you trying to sow distrust towards the Russians as much as they are towards the UK?
      - jstanley 8y ago
        > which side are you on? There is no need to take a side. It is possible to simultaneously distrust the British spies and the Russian spies.
kushti 8y ago
I simply can not find source in the original Swiss article. The most relevant part of the article is: The Federal Intelligence Service (NDB) confirms on request that the Swiss authorities are aware of "the case of the Russian spies who were discovered in the Hague and then taken away". NDB communications chief Isabelle Graber also writes: "The NDB has actively participated in this operation, together with its Dutch and British partners." This has contributed to the "prevention of illegal actions against a critical Swiss infrastructure". How's that related to the two guys detained in Netherlands? I mean, the accusation of them being targeted Swiss lab? How can I be sure this is not a sensationalist fantasy of a journo? It would be good to publish the full report from NDB.
AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
Yeah, we, Russians, are so stupid so decided to kill the guy who was in our prison several years ago (why did not we do that then?) with a top Soviet chemical weapon which is like droping a nuclear bomb to kill a single person. There is a information war happening to desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more.
- beatlebum 8y ago
  You chose the wrong pill my friend
  - AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
    I don't take pills, I live here and all the Skripal story is looking like a bullshit to me, that's my point of view so you can see not only what your mass media is feeding you. Russia is gaining power and other countries don't want that, so come up with ideas to blame Russia in all sins.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > Russia is gaining power China is a rising power. Russia is a moderately-sized (between New York and Florida in GDP [1]) regional power and petrostate with shaky finances. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._stat...
      - AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
        First, I did not say we are on top, but we do gain. Second, power is not only econimics, but politics and power to stand against external threats and protect our people.
        throwaway-hn123 8y ago
        Fuck off back to your state sponsored troll farm.
megous 8y ago
Quite believable. Russian gov. has a motive to interfere with OPCW investigations, and anything that can sow more doubt, fear, confusion or distraction is good as to their strategy post-Chemical attacks that gain publicity. The final report on Douma attack is yet to be released, so it would not be late to create needless problems for the investigation, and I trust OPCW to not make up stuff about hacking attempts certainly more than secret services or Kremlin. It's a fine international organization. If anything, Kremlin is probably more interested now that OPCW gained responsibility to point fingers at perpetrators a few months ago.
- guilhas 8y ago
  Russians had to beg for the OPCW to go collect samples from Douma. While they were there, UK, FR, US were having fun bombing the area. How can more Russian FUD be good for Russia? Because that is UK and US do everyday. They dont need Russia help. Also OPCW does analysis in more than one lab. Both Skripal and Syria chemical use theories are very weak.
  - megous 8y ago
    Not really. Point me to the OPCW report that says evidence of chemical weapons use in Syria is weak. FUD is good, because it takes away/weakens popular support from any kind of western intervention, which is good for Putin's interests in the region. Less competition. Also you're rewriting history. I was actually watching the developments quite closely as it was happening and there were numerous reports of Russians delaying OPCW FFM on basis of security in the area, while at the same time parading around some journalists in the same area. And last, the US and friends bombing were during the night and in a different place. Certainly nothing that would prevent OPCW FFM from operating in the area.
    - guilhas 8y ago
      I said theories. As in "Russia stands to gain from Skripal poisoning, only they had the method, it was a state operation, approved by Putin, during election campaign and FIFA2018" And "Assad gassing his people while wining the war". But you also have reports from UN/OPCW that the rebeles were the ones to chemical weapons, or that there were no chemical weapons used in Douma. I don't see how FUD of Russia damages western intervention. Also the disaster of previous western interventions, and the current in Syria supporting the terrorists speaks for itself. Russia vetoed a US UN resolution to determine responsibles without an FFM, just relying on the civil society and media reports. Other Russia delaying news were already almost 10 days in, including after US bombings. They say it was for security reasons, and there were shotings while the investigators were there. Also if there were journalists parading how could they interfere with the evidence? They bombed in Douma area also. Which was strange since investigators were on their way. Also taking action before the investigation does not sound very credible.
Wimpzilla 8y ago
All this stuff sums up to the already existing superciliousness nonsense a living form needs to goes through during life, as perpetual assault to any knowledgeable human being living on this planet! Human Being going down further and further without any brake! Edit: Nice insta downvote!

141 points by yread 8y ago

Travel ban Russia

Is it related to this? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/30/swiss-lab-analysed-salisbury-nerve-agent-says-targeted-russian/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/30/swiss-lab-analys...

PeterisP 8y ago
Yes.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ryanlol 8y ago

Article says detained, not arrested.

huhtenberg 8y ago
Swiss newspaper article also says (Google-translated): Why the two were brought back to Russia and not prosecuted in the Netherlands or transferred to Switzerland, neither the Dutch military intelligence nor other requested authorities wanted to explain. It is also unknown what they did in the Netherlands.
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  would you have a link please?
  - huhtenberg 8y ago
    https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/russische-spione-auf-dem-weg-ins-berner-oberland-verhaftet/story/27257777 https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/russische-spione-auf-d... It's the second link from the first paragraph of the HN's submission.
    - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
      thank you!
beatlebum 8y ago
Same thing (former police officer here).
elmo2you 8y ago
There could be several reasons for not arresting these "spies". First, there might have been just suspicions but no real evidence, something that would make prosecuting these men problematic and also cause a significant diplomatic struggle for the Dutch. Secondly, the evidence itself might expose sources and methods that the Dutch would not like to be exposed in a publicly prosecuted legal case. Third, the NRC article suggests that these individuals might have been two earlier evicted Russian embassy employees, in which case they might even have been immune to arrest. The timing of these allegations are at best suspect. If the allegations are true, it would definitely not look great on Russia. But it might have been about Russia trying to get insight into what they are up against in the whole Novichok debacle. Not nice, but something (m)any governments might try, in a case like this. It should also be noted that Holland is not an impartial party when it comes to Russia. One of Holland's largest companies, Royal Dutch Shell, bought exclusive concession rights (for several decades to come) to natural resources in the Ukraine, most of which became inaccessible to them after the regime change in Kiev and the subsequent separation of Crimea and the eastern part of the country that it triggered. Shell, just as key American players who made similar deals, will not be happy about how events unfolded in the Ukraine. Furthermore, Shell has a substantial leverage within Dutch politics and government. Of course, none of that proves that the Dutch can not be trusted, but it might be wise to at least not blindly believe whatever Russia related news comes from them.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > One of Holland's largest companies, Royal Dutch Shell, bought exclusive concession rights (for several decades to come) to natural resources in the Ukraine, most of which became inaccessible to them after the regime change in Kiev Royal Dutch Shell’s 20% interest in Rosneft [1], a Russian oil company, eclipses the its exposure to Ukraine. This has been a sticking point at every sanctions crossroads, with the Dutch requiring extraordinary evidence before proceeding. [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/general/2014/05/17/just-how-exposed-is-royal-dutch-shell-plc-to-russi.aspx https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/gene...
  - elmo2you 8y ago

steveharman 8y ago

They weren't spies, they were tourists. We get them all the time here in the UK.

raverbashing 8y ago
Just walking around, doing nothing suspicious and carrying nothing special.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Well, carrying whatever some secret service said they were carrying (and which we should take their word for it) in an ongoing effort to revive the Cold War... Perhaps they even had WMDs on them...
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    >> and which we should take their word for it Would you rather distrust the UK secret service and believe whatever the hell Putin is saying? My Russian parents are so happy to listen to Russian television it makes me sick (given the fact that they are Lithuanian citizens since 1991). The question is not whether you should trust UK secret service, but rather - which side are you on? Because the fact is that we'll probably never know anyway, and Russia is happy to monetise on the liberal distrust of the government. After all, Soviets did have a culture of managing the public opinion in their own state.
    - AllegedAlec 8y ago
      Not pointing fingers, but aren't you trying to sow distrust towards the Russians as much as they are towards the UK?
    - jstanley 8y ago
      > which side are you on? There is no need to take a side. It is possible to simultaneously distrust the British spies and the Russian spies.

kushti 8y ago

I simply can not find source in the original Swiss article. The most relevant part of the article is: The Federal Intelligence Service (NDB) confirms on request that the Swiss authorities are aware of "the case of the Russian spies who were discovered in the Hague and then taken away". NDB communications chief Isabelle Graber also writes: "The NDB has actively participated in this operation, together with its Dutch and British partners." This has contributed to the "prevention of illegal actions against a critical Swiss infrastructure". How's that related to the two guys detained in Netherlands? I mean, the accusation of them being targeted Swiss lab? How can I be sure this is not a sensationalist fantasy of a journo? It would be good to publish the full report from NDB.

AlexeyParamonov 8y ago

Yeah, we, Russians, are so stupid so decided to kill the guy who was in our prison several years ago (why did not we do that then?) with a top Soviet chemical weapon which is like droping a nuclear bomb to kill a single person. There is a information war happening to desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more.

beatlebum 8y ago
You chose the wrong pill my friend
- AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
  I don't take pills, I live here and all the Skripal story is looking like a bullshit to me, that's my point of view so you can see not only what your mass media is feeding you. Russia is gaining power and other countries don't want that, so come up with ideas to blame Russia in all sins.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Russia is gaining power China is a rising power. Russia is a moderately-sized (between New York and Florida in GDP [1]) regional power and petrostate with shaky finances. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._stat...
    - AlexeyParamonov 8y ago
      First, I did not say we are on top, but we do gain. Second, power is not only econimics, but politics and power to stand against external threats and protect our people.
      - throwaway-hn123 8y ago
        Fuck off back to your state sponsored troll farm.

megous 8y ago

Quite believable. Russian gov. has a motive to interfere with OPCW investigations, and anything that can sow more doubt, fear, confusion or distraction is good as to their strategy post-Chemical attacks that gain publicity. The final report on Douma attack is yet to be released, so it would not be late to create needless problems for the investigation, and I trust OPCW to not make up stuff about hacking attempts certainly more than secret services or Kremlin. It's a fine international organization. If anything, Kremlin is probably more interested now that OPCW gained responsibility to point fingers at perpetrators a few months ago.

guilhas 8y ago
Russians had to beg for the OPCW to go collect samples from Douma. While they were there, UK, FR, US were having fun bombing the area. How can more Russian FUD be good for Russia? Because that is UK and US do everyday. They dont need Russia help. Also OPCW does analysis in more than one lab. Both Skripal and Syria chemical use theories are very weak.
- megous 8y ago
  Not really. Point me to the OPCW report that says evidence of chemical weapons use in Syria is weak. FUD is good, because it takes away/weakens popular support from any kind of western intervention, which is good for Putin's interests in the region. Less competition. Also you're rewriting history. I was actually watching the developments quite closely as it was happening and there were numerous reports of Russians delaying OPCW FFM on basis of security in the area, while at the same time parading around some journalists in the same area. And last, the US and friends bombing were during the night and in a different place. Certainly nothing that would prevent OPCW FFM from operating in the area.
  - guilhas 8y ago
    I said theories. As in "Russia stands to gain from Skripal poisoning, only they had the method, it was a state operation, approved by Putin, during election campaign and FIFA2018" And "Assad gassing his people while wining the war". But you also have reports from UN/OPCW that the rebeles were the ones to chemical weapons, or that there were no chemical weapons used in Douma. I don't see how FUD of Russia damages western intervention. Also the disaster of previous western interventions, and the current in Syria supporting the terrorists speaks for itself. Russia vetoed a US UN resolution to determine responsibles without an FFM, just relying on the civil society and media reports. Other Russia delaying news were already almost 10 days in, including after US bombings. They say it was for security reasons, and there were shotings while the investigators were there. Also if there were journalists parading how could they interfere with the evidence? They bombed in Douma area also. Which was strange since investigators were on their way. Also taking action before the investigation does not sound very credible.

Wimpzilla 8y ago

All this stuff sums up to the already existing superciliousness nonsense a living form needs to goes through during life, as perpetual assault to any knowledgeable human being living on this planet! Human Being going down further and further without any brake! Edit: Nice insta downvote!