6 ms·

We don't know if the cause is hacking, but it's likely that gas main pressure is controlled by a computer. It'd be shocking if a software failure could cause do

by tlb 8y ago

We don't know if the cause is hacking, but it's likely that gas main pressure is controlled by a computer. It'd be shocking if a software failure could cause dozens of fires.

digikata 8y ago
I'd speculate that the simplest root cause might be an system overpressure. Any hookup to a valve that couldn't contain a pressure of some level could be susceptible to leaking gas onto an ignition source which could then start a fire.
- tlb 8y ago
  It's surely overpressure, beyond what the regulators at each house can hold back. The question is why, and whether such a thing could be caused by hacking a SCADA system. A gas explosion (claimed to be among the biggest non-nuclear explosions) was caused by the CIA hacking a soviet pipeline: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1455559/CIA-plot-led-to-huge-blast-in-Siberian-gas-pipeline.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/...
  - jordache 8y ago
    SCADA does not imply the ability to remotely move mechanical parts to result in a negative condition in the pipeline system.
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    I didn't know the CIA did that, thanks for sharing. No idea what caused today's explosion, but the USA is clearly not without enemies and vulnerabilities in its own infrastructure.
  - IAmGraydon 8y ago
    It’s peculiar to me that you have repeatedly attempted to create a rumor that it was hackers even though there is no evidence to support that. Are you playing at something or just enjoy spreading misinformation?
    - VLM 8y ago
      What seems strange is IF someone had root on a enemy nation's natgas distribution plant, a short spike resulting in a handful of explosions is the third least effective attack I can think of (the least being doing nothing, second least effective being some kind of blackmail attempt). Performing almost any other conscious action would be more destructive to life and property and economy. Therefore unless its literally accidental (like the SQL slammer attack decades ago causing DOS via flooding) there almost certainly can not be hacking / terror involvement. Yet its also too destructive and attention seeking to be a plausible threat or sending a message; if outsiders messed with the SCADA to do this, fifteen minutes later all the passwords would be changed and sites physically locked down, such that a threat to do something more destructive next time (or else..) such as flicking the gas supply off for a couple minutes would be a non-starter. You have to look at it militarily like a stealth attack; giving away your position is not a wise first move if your whole strategy is stealth. You get one shot and this would be an intentional miss, so ... This would also imply its not an inside job; an insider would know that in my state (admittedly not MA, thankfully) an interruption in pressure requires an attempt at physical access by a rep with a leak sensor to verify pilot light and pilot light safety interlock for EVERY point of use and/or door tag notification warnings. Its happened to me a couple of times for some street work replacing pipes and replacement of my old meter. Its kind of an expensive labor job, a wealth transfer from the company to the union. The fact this didn't happen kind of exonerates the union. So rule out outsiders and insiders. A nutjob would probably drive a truck into an above ground facility, or frankly, just drive into people, so its probably not a nut. Not many options left. Space aliens did it accidentally? Maybe they closed down that solar observatory in NM because the space aliens are coming to mess with our delicious natgas.
CydeWeys 8y ago
You'd hope that there'd be mechanical, non-hackable safeguards in place to prevent obvious over-pressure situations. Why would any part of the system allow a serious over-pressure that would result in catastrophe like this?
- jacquesm 8y ago
  There are, but one of their safety mechanism is that excess pressure will lead to venting and that in turn can lead to fire if it happens enough. A tiny bit of venting is harmless but a lot of it over a short period of time can cause dangerous concentrations of gas mixed in with regular air, and that is a very nicely combustible mix.
Alex3917 8y ago
If it was Russia trying to send a message, you'd think they'd have done it on an election day. Still though this is pretty crazy, especially given that most buildings in NYC have a gas hookup.
- antt 8y ago
  Do you: 1). Blame 50 years of infrastructure neglect to the point that the US is ranked a D+ [0] in infrastructure. 2). Blame a country with the population of Nigeria, the GDP of Italy and the military spending of Suadi Arabia? [0] https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/ https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    Could go either way. U.S. infrastructure is terrible and getting worse, which is why the country is collapsing. but (IIRC) natural gas hookups aren't one of the issues that that report emphasizes. If one building exploded due to a leak then clearly that points to decaying infrastructure, but if dozens of houses explode due to overpressure then that seems more ambiguous.
    - antt 8y ago
      >Could go either way. No it couldn't. That you and some number of other people think it can signals a truly disturbing disconnect from reality on par with global warming denial. Nuclear powers do not interfere with each others civilian infrastructure.
      - fribbles 8y ago
        > Nuclear powers do not interfere with each others civilian infrastructure. You have to be kidding. Tell that to that doctor currently in prison in Pakistan for helping the US run a completely fraudulent public health vaccination program. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakil_Afridi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakil_Afridi There is also the US blowing up that USSR gas pipeline that tlb linked to - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1455559/CIA-plot-led-to-huge-blast-in-Siberian-gas-pipeline.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/... Then there is the recent reports of Russian infrastructure hacks on a whole range of US industries - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-16/russian-hackers-penetrated-u-s-aviation-sector-early-last-year https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-16/russian-h... And then of course, there is the ultimate infrastructure hack - https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump Though that is probably just tit-for-tat, after the US assistance in the career of Boris Yeltsin.
nrmitchi 8y ago
I'm curious why you seem to be speculating/implying that this was a deliberate "attack"/act of terrorism, when the linked article doesn't mention anything of the sort. Your comment seems to be implying that there is some sort of evidence of hacking here, which, unless I'm missing something, does not seem to be the case.
karlkatzke 8y ago
LOL SCADA? You haven’t been involved with infrastructure in MASS have you? Let’s put it this way: it wouldn’t surprise me, especially in Lawrence, if some of the gas mains were still made out of wood. Before you scoff, NYC replaced the last wood gas main that they knew of 25 years ago, but they still occasionally find wooden pipe in their systems. The best way I’ve heard the gas infrastructure described is “antiquated ... if it was aged, it could be updated and replaced, but it’s so antiquated all that can be done is patchwork because there’s no time to do anything but.”
- yread 8y ago
  the last woooden pipe in Philadelphia: https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/sep/17/bill-maher/bill-maher-says-some-natural-gas-pipes-are-made-wo/ https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/sep...
userbinator 8y ago
No, it's probably controlled by good-old-fashioned mechanical regulators... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_regulator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_regulator ...and the cause may be as simple as the regulator valve sticking open for some reason.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  The main reason why that usually happens is if the pressure is extremely constant for a long time, this can cause the valves to seize up and not function properly when they are needed.
jacquesm 8y ago
> We don't know if the cause is hacking Unlikely. > but it's likely that gas main pressure is controlled by a computer. But the failsafes are not. Overpressure is something the system is designed to handle, and those gas substations that you see every now and then in fields are the places where the overpressure regulation devices are located, and they are purely mechanical. > It'd be shocking if a software failure could cause dozens of fires. It would be, but this isn't that. The actuators on these systems are made with the express purpose that line fluctuations will always be slow enough to catch up with. But if a regulator fails in a bad way that might cause a prolonged overpressure with the initial change arriving as a spike, which may expose further weaknesses downstream. So the signature of an upstream regulator failure (a big one, and a sudden one too), is fairly consistent with what you are seeing here. The software actuators would not cause a pressure rise fast enough for that initial spike and the limit settings on those actuators (which are mechanical) would not allow those actuators to move beyond certain minimum and maximum set points for each line that they service. The people that designed these systems were anything but stupid and it is failsafes layered on more failsafes, the big killer for systems like this is a very simple one: back maintenance.

by tlb 8y ago

We don't know if the cause is hacking, but it's likely that gas main pressure is controlled by a computer. It'd be shocking if a software failure could cause dozens of fires.

digikata 8y ago

I'd speculate that the simplest root cause might be an system overpressure. Any hookup to a valve that couldn't contain a pressure of some level could be susceptible to leaking gas onto an ignition source which could then start a fire.

tlb 8y ago
It's surely overpressure, beyond what the regulators at each house can hold back. The question is why, and whether such a thing could be caused by hacking a SCADA system. A gas explosion (claimed to be among the biggest non-nuclear explosions) was caused by the CIA hacking a soviet pipeline: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1455559/CIA-plot-led-to-huge-blast-in-Siberian-gas-pipeline.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/...
- jordache 8y ago
  SCADA does not imply the ability to remotely move mechanical parts to result in a negative condition in the pipeline system.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  I didn't know the CIA did that, thanks for sharing. No idea what caused today's explosion, but the USA is clearly not without enemies and vulnerabilities in its own infrastructure.
- IAmGraydon 8y ago
  It’s peculiar to me that you have repeatedly attempted to create a rumor that it was hackers even though there is no evidence to support that. Are you playing at something or just enjoy spreading misinformation?
  - VLM 8y ago
    What seems strange is IF someone had root on a enemy nation's natgas distribution plant, a short spike resulting in a handful of explosions is the third least effective attack I can think of (the least being doing nothing, second least effective being some kind of blackmail attempt). Performing almost any other conscious action would be more destructive to life and property and economy. Therefore unless its literally accidental (like the SQL slammer attack decades ago causing DOS via flooding) there almost certainly can not be hacking / terror involvement. Yet its also too destructive and attention seeking to be a plausible threat or sending a message; if outsiders messed with the SCADA to do this, fifteen minutes later all the passwords would be changed and sites physically locked down, such that a threat to do something more destructive next time (or else..) such as flicking the gas supply off for a couple minutes would be a non-starter. You have to look at it militarily like a stealth attack; giving away your position is not a wise first move if your whole strategy is stealth. You get one shot and this would be an intentional miss, so ... This would also imply its not an inside job; an insider would know that in my state (admittedly not MA, thankfully) an interruption in pressure requires an attempt at physical access by a rep with a leak sensor to verify pilot light and pilot light safety interlock for EVERY point of use and/or door tag notification warnings. Its happened to me a couple of times for some street work replacing pipes and replacement of my old meter. Its kind of an expensive labor job, a wealth transfer from the company to the union. The fact this didn't happen kind of exonerates the union. So rule out outsiders and insiders. A nutjob would probably drive a truck into an above ground facility, or frankly, just drive into people, so its probably not a nut. Not many options left. Space aliens did it accidentally? Maybe they closed down that solar observatory in NM because the space aliens are coming to mess with our delicious natgas.

CydeWeys 8y ago

You'd hope that there'd be mechanical, non-hackable safeguards in place to prevent obvious over-pressure situations. Why would any part of the system allow a serious over-pressure that would result in catastrophe like this?

jacquesm 8y ago
There are, but one of their safety mechanism is that excess pressure will lead to venting and that in turn can lead to fire if it happens enough. A tiny bit of venting is harmless but a lot of it over a short period of time can cause dangerous concentrations of gas mixed in with regular air, and that is a very nicely combustible mix.

Alex3917 8y ago

If it was Russia trying to send a message, you'd think they'd have done it on an election day. Still though this is pretty crazy, especially given that most buildings in NYC have a gas hookup.

antt 8y ago
Do you: 1). Blame 50 years of infrastructure neglect to the point that the US is ranked a D+ [0] in infrastructure. 2). Blame a country with the population of Nigeria, the GDP of Italy and the military spending of Suadi Arabia? [0] https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/ https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/
- Alex3917 8y ago
  Could go either way. U.S. infrastructure is terrible and getting worse, which is why the country is collapsing. but (IIRC) natural gas hookups aren't one of the issues that that report emphasizes. If one building exploded due to a leak then clearly that points to decaying infrastructure, but if dozens of houses explode due to overpressure then that seems more ambiguous.
  - antt 8y ago
    >Could go either way. No it couldn't. That you and some number of other people think it can signals a truly disturbing disconnect from reality on par with global warming denial. Nuclear powers do not interfere with each others civilian infrastructure.
    - fribbles 8y ago
      > Nuclear powers do not interfere with each others civilian infrastructure. You have to be kidding. Tell that to that doctor currently in prison in Pakistan for helping the US run a completely fraudulent public health vaccination program. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakil_Afridi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakil_Afridi There is also the US blowing up that USSR gas pipeline that tlb linked to - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1455559/CIA-plot-led-to-huge-blast-in-Siberian-gas-pipeline.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/... Then there is the recent reports of Russian infrastructure hacks on a whole range of US industries - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-16/russian-hackers-penetrated-u-s-aviation-sector-early-last-year https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-16/russian-h... And then of course, there is the ultimate infrastructure hack - https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump Though that is probably just tit-for-tat, after the US assistance in the career of Boris Yeltsin.

nrmitchi 8y ago

I'm curious why you seem to be speculating/implying that this was a deliberate "attack"/act of terrorism, when the linked article doesn't mention anything of the sort. Your comment seems to be implying that there is some sort of evidence of hacking here, which, unless I'm missing something, does not seem to be the case.

karlkatzke 8y ago

LOL SCADA? You haven’t been involved with infrastructure in MASS have you? Let’s put it this way: it wouldn’t surprise me, especially in Lawrence, if some of the gas mains were still made out of wood. Before you scoff, NYC replaced the last wood gas main that they knew of 25 years ago, but they still occasionally find wooden pipe in their systems. The best way I’ve heard the gas infrastructure described is “antiquated ... if it was aged, it could be updated and replaced, but it’s so antiquated all that can be done is patchwork because there’s no time to do anything but.”

yread 8y ago
the last woooden pipe in Philadelphia: https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/sep/17/bill-maher/bill-maher-says-some-natural-gas-pipes-are-made-wo/ https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/sep...

userbinator 8y ago

No, it's probably controlled by good-old-fashioned mechanical regulators... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_regulator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_regulator ...and the cause may be as simple as the regulator valve sticking open for some reason.

jacquesm 8y ago
The main reason why that usually happens is if the pressure is extremely constant for a long time, this can cause the valves to seize up and not function properly when they are needed.

jacquesm 8y ago

> We don't know if the cause is hacking Unlikely. > but it's likely that gas main pressure is controlled by a computer. But the failsafes are not. Overpressure is something the system is designed to handle, and those gas substations that you see every now and then in fields are the places where the overpressure regulation devices are located, and they are purely mechanical. > It'd be shocking if a software failure could cause dozens of fires. It would be, but this isn't that. The actuators on these systems are made with the express purpose that line fluctuations will always be slow enough to catch up with. But if a regulator fails in a bad way that might cause a prolonged overpressure with the initial change arriving as a spike, which may expose further weaknesses downstream. So the signature of an upstream regulator failure (a big one, and a sudden one too), is fairly consistent with what you are seeing here. The software actuators would not cause a pressure rise fast enough for that initial spike and the limit settings on those actuators (which are mechanical) would not allow those actuators to move beyond certain minimum and maximum set points for each line that they service. The people that designed these systems were anything but stupid and it is failsafes layered on more failsafes, the big killer for systems like this is a very simple one: back maintenance.