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What's more American than the entrepreneurial spirit which drives self-owned & operated businesses like this? You have individuals who are self-responsible for

What's more American than the entrepreneurial spirit which drives self-owned & operated businesses like this? You have individuals who are self-responsible for their product/service. It's neat to see the historical precedent. Yet across America police are shutting down lemonaide stands. Even ones run by kids. Food trucks and stalls are ticketed and confiscated in other cases. Developers might be wise to speak up before you need an expensive license or medallion or charter in order to sell apps or other tech services. It's no less likely to happen, it just hasn't had time to yet.

llukas 8y ago
If your service involves public health or safety then you should be regulated.
- landryraccoon 8y ago
  It’s a tradeoff. I’m kind of bummed that the West doesn’t have the kind of small street food cart culture that is common in Asia. I’ve eaten at dozens of them and never gotten sick.
  - pandapower2 8y ago
    I have a theory that the largely unregulared street food culture survives due to how rare it is for people in cities (in particular) to cook for themselves. Firstly, you have a large population who are going to purchase food several times a day. That means a food vendor can potentially establish themselves in single location or a neighborhood and build a base of repeat customers, customers who may purchase from them several times a week, if not every day. Beyond that direct repeat business, regulars will order from their favorite vendor even when they have no queue of waiting customers. That initial group of regulars around a vendor waiting for their order sends a strong positive signal to other potential customers who may not usually buy food in this area. If you dont know the vendors, buying from a vendor with no customers is a risky move. Next, because buying meals is such a common part of everyone's life it becomes a common conversation. That provides an additional chance to reward quality vendors while punishing low quality vendors. That environment strongly punishes food vendors that make their customers sick in particular. Your regulars will abandon you and bad mouth you to all their friends and coworkers. Meanwhile, in the west mobile food vendors rarely have that kind of repeat clientele. Most customers will purchase food from them precisely once. And even if you complain to your friends, chances are that so much time will have passed before they encounter that vendor that they will have forgotten the conversation.
- bigiain 8y ago
  Didn't Portland (OR) come up with a reasonable compromise to regulate "food trucks" somewhat less rigorously than "restaurants" and then leaving it up to a (hopefully informed) consumer to choose? I'm perfectly happy to take my personal food safety responsibility myself when visiting, say, Thailand - some of their street food is _amazing_, and I'm sure some of it is not very safe. I've never "rolled the dice" wrong there, using just a small modicum of common sense and trustworthy local advice... (I'd eat pretty much anything deep fried, pretty much nothing raw, and lean on locals for advice on choices in between...)
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    Yea. I find it incredible that when news hit that Thailand was cracking down on food trucks, same as has been done in America, it was a big enough injustice of personal freedom and free markets that it even hit the front page of HN. However, criticize the same thing in America and my comment was extremely controversial. I think that says something about how much faith people put into precedent and authority.
RangerScience 8y ago
I mean, to be snarky - > What's more American than the entrepreneurial spirit which drives self-owned & operated businesses like this? Clearly, lobbying the government to make your competitors illegal. /snark It's super cool that a guy with a basket turned into night lunch wagons turned into diners. It's also then pretty interesting that it took nearly a century for a comeback. (Not that roach coaches haven't been a thing, but, food trucks took it to another level). Any indications for the intervening slump?
- mc32 8y ago
  I think roach coaches were are a thing in “working clasd districs” where all you could afford is a cheap pop and prepackaged meals (burgers, knishes, burritoes, pizza, etc.). Food Trucks are glorified roach coached which charge a premium and serve mostly office workers who have more discretionary spending and sometimes more demanding palates. Admittedly, things are going “upscale”,
  - RangerScience 8y ago
    Roach coaches are also mostly ethnic food (and, at least in my experience, that ethnicity is Mexican), and aren't decorated. Food trucks tend to be "new" food (fusions, for example) and decorated... and also all the things you said :)
- GW150914 8y ago
  I think the broadening palette and recovering from WWII and processed food had a lot to do with it. You can only make so many things in a truck, but if you’re able to draw from worldwide traditions it represents real variety. Everything from ramen to falafel is doable and delicious in a car or truck, but for a long time Americans weren’t interested in it. Americans seemed to be satisfied with dirty water hot dogs, re-warmed pizza, and things like pretzels. They also weren’t about to spend a serious wad of money for more upscale versions. Braden tastes, the foodie culture, the idea that even if you just want a hot dog there are good ones to be had for a bit more money changed things, but it took decades. You can chart a similar peak-trough-peak in bread in America actually. It used to be nice stuff, then post-war it was mass produced, pre-sliced crap for decades, and now... it’s back to some version of fresh. WWII didn’t have quite the impact on the American palette that it did on the Brits, but it did have an impact, as did modern “convenience” food.
bigiain 8y ago
<devil's advocate hat> If developers didn't keep serving up products contaminated with hidden privacy violations - and were actually held accountable for their product/service when it caused harm to their users - perhaps calls for licenses or charters wouldn't be quite so necessary... Equifax did the developer equivalent of exposing most of the US to salmonella. Reports this week seem to indicate it's had practically no detectable punishment via any form of "self-responsibility".
- wallace_f 8y ago
  Yet Wall St is one of the most highly regulated markets, and look how much destruction they still are able to cause. I'm not so much anti-regulation as much as I am for regulating sensibly. E coli comes from fecal contamination. Do we really need to ban street food because of fecal contamination? Do people need a license to know not to contaminate food with shit? That is the top criticism and post here objecting to mine. And if you believe in that sort of thing, then you everything should be regulated. I dont know what is more common sense than not putting shit in food. There are times where regulation makes sense, but this is not it.
peteretep 8y ago
> What's more American than the entrepreneurial spirit which drives self-owned & operated businesses like this? I'm struggling to see what's particularly American about this? Have you been to Asia? > Food trucks and stalls are ticketed and confiscated in other cases. I -- for one -- enjoy not having e-coli.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  Can you give me a source on what the total economic costs are (including opportunity costs) per reduced cases of e coli due to licensure of eateries? I have spent years in Asia and never heard of it. In the states I know of a few cases of it happening. Not from food trucks or otherwise unlicensed places. I'm all for prudent regulations. I'm not suggesting we abolish the FDA. However, I think government interfering in me and a lemonaide stand, or food truck being, able to voluntarily exchange value is far across the line into the absurd.

llukas 8y ago

If your service involves public health or safety then you should be regulated.

landryraccoon 8y ago
It’s a tradeoff. I’m kind of bummed that the West doesn’t have the kind of small street food cart culture that is common in Asia. I’ve eaten at dozens of them and never gotten sick.
- pandapower2 8y ago
  I have a theory that the largely unregulared street food culture survives due to how rare it is for people in cities (in particular) to cook for themselves. Firstly, you have a large population who are going to purchase food several times a day. That means a food vendor can potentially establish themselves in single location or a neighborhood and build a base of repeat customers, customers who may purchase from them several times a week, if not every day. Beyond that direct repeat business, regulars will order from their favorite vendor even when they have no queue of waiting customers. That initial group of regulars around a vendor waiting for their order sends a strong positive signal to other potential customers who may not usually buy food in this area. If you dont know the vendors, buying from a vendor with no customers is a risky move. Next, because buying meals is such a common part of everyone's life it becomes a common conversation. That provides an additional chance to reward quality vendors while punishing low quality vendors. That environment strongly punishes food vendors that make their customers sick in particular. Your regulars will abandon you and bad mouth you to all their friends and coworkers. Meanwhile, in the west mobile food vendors rarely have that kind of repeat clientele. Most customers will purchase food from them precisely once. And even if you complain to your friends, chances are that so much time will have passed before they encounter that vendor that they will have forgotten the conversation.
bigiain 8y ago
Didn't Portland (OR) come up with a reasonable compromise to regulate "food trucks" somewhat less rigorously than "restaurants" and then leaving it up to a (hopefully informed) consumer to choose? I'm perfectly happy to take my personal food safety responsibility myself when visiting, say, Thailand - some of their street food is _amazing_, and I'm sure some of it is not very safe. I've never "rolled the dice" wrong there, using just a small modicum of common sense and trustworthy local advice... (I'd eat pretty much anything deep fried, pretty much nothing raw, and lean on locals for advice on choices in between...)
- wallace_f 8y ago
  Yea. I find it incredible that when news hit that Thailand was cracking down on food trucks, same as has been done in America, it was a big enough injustice of personal freedom and free markets that it even hit the front page of HN. However, criticize the same thing in America and my comment was extremely controversial. I think that says something about how much faith people put into precedent and authority.

RangerScience 8y ago

I mean, to be snarky - > What's more American than the entrepreneurial spirit which drives self-owned & operated businesses like this? Clearly, lobbying the government to make your competitors illegal. /snark It's super cool that a guy with a basket turned into night lunch wagons turned into diners. It's also then pretty interesting that it took nearly a century for a comeback. (Not that roach coaches haven't been a thing, but, food trucks took it to another level). Any indications for the intervening slump?

mc32 8y ago
I think roach coaches were are a thing in “working clasd districs” where all you could afford is a cheap pop and prepackaged meals (burgers, knishes, burritoes, pizza, etc.). Food Trucks are glorified roach coached which charge a premium and serve mostly office workers who have more discretionary spending and sometimes more demanding palates. Admittedly, things are going “upscale”,
- RangerScience 8y ago
  Roach coaches are also mostly ethnic food (and, at least in my experience, that ethnicity is Mexican), and aren't decorated. Food trucks tend to be "new" food (fusions, for example) and decorated... and also all the things you said :)
GW150914 8y ago
I think the broadening palette and recovering from WWII and processed food had a lot to do with it. You can only make so many things in a truck, but if you’re able to draw from worldwide traditions it represents real variety. Everything from ramen to falafel is doable and delicious in a car or truck, but for a long time Americans weren’t interested in it. Americans seemed to be satisfied with dirty water hot dogs, re-warmed pizza, and things like pretzels. They also weren’t about to spend a serious wad of money for more upscale versions. Braden tastes, the foodie culture, the idea that even if you just want a hot dog there are good ones to be had for a bit more money changed things, but it took decades. You can chart a similar peak-trough-peak in bread in America actually. It used to be nice stuff, then post-war it was mass produced, pre-sliced crap for decades, and now... it’s back to some version of fresh. WWII didn’t have quite the impact on the American palette that it did on the Brits, but it did have an impact, as did modern “convenience” food.

bigiain 8y ago

<devil's advocate hat> If developers didn't keep serving up products contaminated with hidden privacy violations - and were actually held accountable for their product/service when it caused harm to their users - perhaps calls for licenses or charters wouldn't be quite so necessary... Equifax did the developer equivalent of exposing most of the US to salmonella. Reports this week seem to indicate it's had practically no detectable punishment via any form of "self-responsibility".

wallace_f 8y ago
Yet Wall St is one of the most highly regulated markets, and look how much destruction they still are able to cause. I'm not so much anti-regulation as much as I am for regulating sensibly. E coli comes from fecal contamination. Do we really need to ban street food because of fecal contamination? Do people need a license to know not to contaminate food with shit? That is the top criticism and post here objecting to mine. And if you believe in that sort of thing, then you everything should be regulated. I dont know what is more common sense than not putting shit in food. There are times where regulation makes sense, but this is not it.

peteretep 8y ago

> What's more American than the entrepreneurial spirit which drives self-owned & operated businesses like this? I'm struggling to see what's particularly American about this? Have you been to Asia? > Food trucks and stalls are ticketed and confiscated in other cases. I -- for one -- enjoy not having e-coli.

wallace_f 8y ago
Can you give me a source on what the total economic costs are (including opportunity costs) per reduced cases of e coli due to licensure of eateries? I have spent years in Asia and never heard of it. In the states I know of a few cases of it happening. Not from food trucks or otherwise unlicensed places. I'm all for prudent regulations. I'm not suggesting we abolish the FDA. However, I think government interfering in me and a lemonaide stand, or food truck being, able to voluntarily exchange value is far across the line into the absurd.