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Thanks for this comment. It feels surreal to see Americans pretend they have any moral high ground.

Bendingo 8y ago
Agreed. And as usual, I look for the greyed-out comments (like yours) to find a balance and objectivity, missing in the bulk of the (mostly hypocritical) thread.
dnomad 8y ago
It's because Americans live in a very tightly controlled media bubble. There's nothing like it in the history of the world. I think to the rest of the world it really is bizarre. American bombs are being dropped on school buses right now in Yemen, the occupation of Afghanistan enters its second decade, and politicians go on TV to boast about what country they want to invade next. ...but China is the "expansionist" threat that must be avoided at all costs.
- soundwave106 8y ago
  Tight media bubble? Hmm. If I made an equivalent comment similar to coldtea's, one detailing a list of China's sins, on Chinese social media... place your bets on whether or not this post would be removed by the government censors. I bet it would, personally. Probably rather quickly. Some of the "counterpoints" also were strange considering we are talking about China. For instance, China executes more people than anyone else in the world, and even when adjusted at a per capita level China's rate is quite a bit higher than the United States. (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/04/12/china-still-executes-more-people-than-anywhere-else https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/04/12/china-st...) And China's internet surveillance is far worse than the United States, probably one of the worst in the world as far as this goes (eg "Great Firewall", large divisions of government devoted to censoring social media, etc.) -- it is more internal focused at this time, granted, but still. China certainly is meddling in other nations' foreign politics too (just look at the recent politics in Asian countries with the Belt and Road Initiative, with some commentators such as this -- https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/08/28/commentary/world-commentary/chinas-belt-road-debt-trap/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/08/28/commentary/w... -- worried about such being a "debt trap" for political purposes). And the worrying militarization of the American police force still compares nothing to what China is doing in Xinjiang (https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turned-xinjiang-into-a-police-state-like-no-other https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turn...). There certainly are Americans that gloss over our sins and over-promote "American exceptionalism". I don't see that in most of the Hacker News crowd -- I think most Americans on here are plenty aware of our faults and transgressions, and are often rather vocally against our own nation's suppression of dissent and free speech. But China's on another level, a much tighter authoritarian state with much more active spying and suppression. I think it's hard to argue against this.
- pertymcpert 8y ago
  Have you tried to use Weibo?
talmand 8y ago
Clearly no modern person has the moral high ground on anything when looking through the lens of history. I'm surprised the world hasn't fallen into total anarchy since no one can stand up and say "That's wrong!"
cirgue 8y ago
The difference is that we don't lionize the actions of our ancestors. We acknowledge that the wholesale destruction of first peoples was a horrific act of violence, and the US does not cover up the ugly parts of its history. We talk about it openly.
- meiraleal 8y ago
  Some of the ugliest parts is happening now and "you" are not openly talking about it (Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Africa, military bases all over Europe, Asia, Latin America, etc). American government is killing thousands more people yearly then Chinese for a long, long time.
  - gameshot911 8y ago
    I think that with all the money and power that comes with being a superpower, some bad acts are inevitable. There's just too many tendrils on the beast to control all its machinations. Still, all things considered, I truly believe that America is relatively good, fair, and just, given the circumstances. Just imagine what the world would be like if positions were reversed, and China or Russia were the unchecked world superpower. I suspect such a reality would make you yearn for the balance we have today.
    - meiraleal 8y ago
      > Just imagine what the world would be like if positions were reversed, and China or Russia were the unchecked world superpower. I suspect such a reality would make you yearn for the balance we have today. As a Latino and living in Brazil, I'm hoping for this to happen (and is happening). Brazilian business with Chinese and Russians are a lot more fair to our side than business done with US. And they don't use military force. Now if I talk as a citizen of the world, I think the US is one of the greatest superpower of all history and brought insurmountable amount of human development (in pair with Egypt). But as a Brazilian, some if not all of our worldly known issues are because or related to the way our economic elite do business with the US.
  - cirgue 8y ago
tomohawk 8y ago
Can you imagine what people would say if European currency had Adolf Hitler's face on it? Can you imagine if the Nazis were still in power in Germany? Chinese currency has Mao's face on it, and he was a much bigger mass murderer that Hitler. The party he ran is still in power, and still actively violating basic human rights of its citizens.

Agreed. And as usual, I look for the greyed-out comments (like yours) to find a balance and objectivity, missing in the bulk of the (mostly hypocritical) thread.

dnomad 8y ago

It's because Americans live in a very tightly controlled media bubble. There's nothing like it in the history of the world. I think to the rest of the world it really is bizarre. American bombs are being dropped on school buses right now in Yemen, the occupation of Afghanistan enters its second decade, and politicians go on TV to boast about what country they want to invade next. ...but China is the "expansionist" threat that must be avoided at all costs.

soundwave106 8y ago
Tight media bubble? Hmm. If I made an equivalent comment similar to coldtea's, one detailing a list of China's sins, on Chinese social media... place your bets on whether or not this post would be removed by the government censors. I bet it would, personally. Probably rather quickly. Some of the "counterpoints" also were strange considering we are talking about China. For instance, China executes more people than anyone else in the world, and even when adjusted at a per capita level China's rate is quite a bit higher than the United States. (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/04/12/china-still-executes-more-people-than-anywhere-else https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/04/12/china-st...) And China's internet surveillance is far worse than the United States, probably one of the worst in the world as far as this goes (eg "Great Firewall", large divisions of government devoted to censoring social media, etc.) -- it is more internal focused at this time, granted, but still. China certainly is meddling in other nations' foreign politics too (just look at the recent politics in Asian countries with the Belt and Road Initiative, with some commentators such as this -- https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/08/28/commentary/world-commentary/chinas-belt-road-debt-trap/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/08/28/commentary/w... -- worried about such being a "debt trap" for political purposes). And the worrying militarization of the American police force still compares nothing to what China is doing in Xinjiang (https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turned-xinjiang-into-a-police-state-like-no-other https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turn...). There certainly are Americans that gloss over our sins and over-promote "American exceptionalism". I don't see that in most of the Hacker News crowd -- I think most Americans on here are plenty aware of our faults and transgressions, and are often rather vocally against our own nation's suppression of dissent and free speech. But China's on another level, a much tighter authoritarian state with much more active spying and suppression. I think it's hard to argue against this.
pertymcpert 8y ago
Have you tried to use Weibo?

talmand 8y ago

Clearly no modern person has the moral high ground on anything when looking through the lens of history. I'm surprised the world hasn't fallen into total anarchy since no one can stand up and say "That's wrong!"

cirgue 8y ago

The difference is that we don't lionize the actions of our ancestors. We acknowledge that the wholesale destruction of first peoples was a horrific act of violence, and the US does not cover up the ugly parts of its history. We talk about it openly.

meiraleal 8y ago
Some of the ugliest parts is happening now and "you" are not openly talking about it (Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Africa, military bases all over Europe, Asia, Latin America, etc). American government is killing thousands more people yearly then Chinese for a long, long time.
- gameshot911 8y ago
  I think that with all the money and power that comes with being a superpower, some bad acts are inevitable. There's just too many tendrils on the beast to control all its machinations. Still, all things considered, I truly believe that America is relatively good, fair, and just, given the circumstances. Just imagine what the world would be like if positions were reversed, and China or Russia were the unchecked world superpower. I suspect such a reality would make you yearn for the balance we have today.
  - meiraleal 8y ago
    > Just imagine what the world would be like if positions were reversed, and China or Russia were the unchecked world superpower. I suspect such a reality would make you yearn for the balance we have today. As a Latino and living in Brazil, I'm hoping for this to happen (and is happening). Brazilian business with Chinese and Russians are a lot more fair to our side than business done with US. And they don't use military force. Now if I talk as a citizen of the world, I think the US is one of the greatest superpower of all history and brought insurmountable amount of human development (in pair with Egypt). But as a Brazilian, some if not all of our worldly known issues are because or related to the way our economic elite do business with the US.
- cirgue 8y ago

tomohawk 8y ago

Can you imagine what people would say if European currency had Adolf Hitler's face on it? Can you imagine if the Nazis were still in power in Germany? Chinese currency has Mao's face on it, and he was a much bigger mass murderer that Hitler. The party he ran is still in power, and still actively violating basic human rights of its citizens.