4 ms·

Even if a sufficiently advanced civ out there is using something like quantum entanglement, they mostly likely didn't just jump from smoke signals to quantum en

by cde-v 8y ago

Even if a sufficiently advanced civ out there is using something like quantum entanglement, they mostly likely didn't just jump from smoke signals to quantum entanglement. So we might be catching signals from the say 500 years while they used radio waves.

gnulinux 8y ago
But isn't there a certain probability we missed those radio waves back when we didn't know radio and now the earth is receiving more sophisticated signals humans can't yet analyze?
- saudioger 8y ago
  Sure, it's also possible the universe immediately surrounding us was teeming with life a billion years ago and we just missed it all anyway. We can only try our best with the current means we have available.
- cde-v 8y ago
  We could have missed those signals millions of years ago, but we could also start receive a civ's first ever radio broadcast tomorrow (that would be incredibly lucky).
  - jcelerier 8y ago
    > we could also start receive a civ's first ever radio broadcast tomorrow (that would be incredibly lucky). not a chance. Our own radio transmissions barely go past the solar system before going under the noise floor.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      Maybe not their first radio broadcast, but possible one of their early, directed ones…
themagician 8y ago
Look at us as an example though. We've had radio for a little over 200 years and already realize its limitations. Smoke signals will have been around for a lot longer than radio. Smoke signals will have been around for 99.9% of the timeline and then 0.1% radio before quantum. To an outside observer it would look like radio was just skipped. If you scale human civilization into a 1 year time frame we invent radio at 3PM on December 31st.
saagarjha 8y ago
500 years is a very short period of time on the cosmic scale.
blueprint 8y ago
Just so you know, entanglement can't be used to transmit data. You must still transport the particles which have become entangled. When you observe them later you are only "instantaneously obtaining information" through the process of elimination.
8bitsrule 8y ago
Assuming that we are right that matter can't 'travel' FTL, it's entirely possible that signals can (despite our current inability to understand how) somehow travel FTL. Once discovered, that method might be a thousand or million times FTL. Such a relatively instant means of communication would become the defacto standard. Antiquated EM methods and equipment would be forgotten. Noone would be listening for it, just as very few today would recognize semaphore flags, smoke signals, or telegraph codes. Today we'd not be eligible to join that club. And if we choose to remain certain that it doesn't exist, our determined ignorance would keep us locked out. If we conclude that we aren't special, that there -must- be life elsewhere, then the only logical thing to do is to keep our minds open and keep looking for clues. We can't ever decide that we know enough. A century ago, the Milky Way was the whole universe. A few more observations changed that forever.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Yet most of the old technologies we've invented are still used by hobbyists and collectors. Morse hasn't ceased to exist, neither have steam trains, analogue radio or horses. None have been forgotten. People are still making crystal sets and wave traps. There's a whole niche on YT of people making primitive huts, fires, bows or making it their weekend hobby through re-enactment etc. Some of the details are lost like maintenance details, advanced fault finding etc, but the core remains. After a century of radio and electricity it would be rather silly to only search for other signs of life on the new system of FTL communication we just discovered. It still gives no certainty that the candidate alien discovered the same defacto standard for FTL comms or that theirs will be recognisable. Any rational search should try and encompass both and probably still emphasise the analogue as any advanced civilisation would very likely go through that phase first, just like we are. We'd be likely to catch more possibilities that way.
  - 8bitsrule 8y ago
    The point was that we can't assume that because there are no civilizations using EM for comms, there are no civilizations.
- russdill 8y ago

by cde-v 8y ago

gnulinux 8y ago

But isn't there a certain probability we missed those radio waves back when we didn't know radio and now the earth is receiving more sophisticated signals humans can't yet analyze?

saudioger 8y ago
Sure, it's also possible the universe immediately surrounding us was teeming with life a billion years ago and we just missed it all anyway. We can only try our best with the current means we have available.
cde-v 8y ago
We could have missed those signals millions of years ago, but we could also start receive a civ's first ever radio broadcast tomorrow (that would be incredibly lucky).
- jcelerier 8y ago
  > we could also start receive a civ's first ever radio broadcast tomorrow (that would be incredibly lucky). not a chance. Our own radio transmissions barely go past the solar system before going under the noise floor.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Maybe not their first radio broadcast, but possible one of their early, directed ones…

themagician 8y ago

Look at us as an example though. We've had radio for a little over 200 years and already realize its limitations. Smoke signals will have been around for a lot longer than radio. Smoke signals will have been around for 99.9% of the timeline and then 0.1% radio before quantum. To an outside observer it would look like radio was just skipped. If you scale human civilization into a 1 year time frame we invent radio at 3PM on December 31st.

saagarjha 8y ago

500 years is a very short period of time on the cosmic scale.

blueprint 8y ago

Just so you know, entanglement can't be used to transmit data. You must still transport the particles which have become entangled. When you observe them later you are only "instantaneously obtaining information" through the process of elimination.

8bitsrule 8y ago

Assuming that we are right that matter can't 'travel' FTL, it's entirely possible that signals can (despite our current inability to understand how) somehow travel FTL. Once discovered, that method might be a thousand or million times FTL. Such a relatively instant means of communication would become the defacto standard. Antiquated EM methods and equipment would be forgotten. Noone would be listening for it, just as very few today would recognize semaphore flags, smoke signals, or telegraph codes. Today we'd not be eligible to join that club. And if we choose to remain certain that it doesn't exist, our determined ignorance would keep us locked out. If we conclude that we aren't special, that there -must- be life elsewhere, then the only logical thing to do is to keep our minds open and keep looking for clues. We can't ever decide that we know enough. A century ago, the Milky Way was the whole universe. A few more observations changed that forever.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Yet most of the old technologies we've invented are still used by hobbyists and collectors. Morse hasn't ceased to exist, neither have steam trains, analogue radio or horses. None have been forgotten. People are still making crystal sets and wave traps. There's a whole niche on YT of people making primitive huts, fires, bows or making it their weekend hobby through re-enactment etc. Some of the details are lost like maintenance details, advanced fault finding etc, but the core remains. After a century of radio and electricity it would be rather silly to only search for other signs of life on the new system of FTL communication we just discovered. It still gives no certainty that the candidate alien discovered the same defacto standard for FTL comms or that theirs will be recognisable. Any rational search should try and encompass both and probably still emphasise the analogue as any advanced civilisation would very likely go through that phase first, just like we are. We'd be likely to catch more possibilities that way.
- 8bitsrule 8y ago
  The point was that we can't assume that because there are no civilizations using EM for comms, there are no civilizations.
russdill 8y ago