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This sounds like it is just going to trade one set of problems for another. It makes it impossible to write generic container types. What if elements of the sam

This sounds like it is just going to trade one set of problems for another. It makes it impossible to write generic container types. What if elements of the same collection need to have different structure? What benefits justify this extremely tight coupling?

steveklabnik 8y ago
I mean, that's sorta the point of the talk. Did you watch it? > This sounds like it is just going to trade one set of problems for another. Sure, that's exactly what a tradeoff is. > what substantiates the claim that it is generally superior? I don't think the claim is that it is always superior. Oh, and I would see this refactor of a decoupling. The issue is that, if you’re trying to process Players in certain ways, the fact that the name and health are coupled together in a single struct is an issue. This pulls them apart.
db48x 8y ago
It's frequently done that way for performance. Imagine a game of Starcraft, with 1000 zerglings rushing your base. The game has to repeatedly loop over all the zerglings to move them. Since there are lots of other fields tracking all of the other data about each zergling, the normal AOS approach has poor data locality; you load a cache line and then you only touch a few bytes of it. With the SOA approach you're looping over an array of positions, so every byte that you fetch from memory ends up being used.
- LBarret 8y ago
  I agree with you but this I am not sure it is the right example. In this case, the position of the zergs would be indirectly a component. You would have arrays of struct Zergs, each would only have a ref (or an index) to an arrays of positions. this array would be updated efficiently.
  - db48x 8y ago
    Yes, you could do that, but then you don't have SOA or AOS, you have SORTA (struct of references to arrays).
raphlinus 8y ago
As steveklabnik says, it absolutely is about tradeoffs. The anymap crate may provide enough of "generic container types" to be useful, and can avoid a lot of repetition of per-type code. A graph with heterogeneous node types is definitely possible, Box<Any> is one solution and there are others.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
"What if elements of the same collection need to have different structure?" The answer is, they usually don't.
- meheleventyone 8y ago
  And even if you did with Rust you could theoretically use enums to achieve it (or a union in C).
Tuna-Fish 8y ago
> What if elements of the same collection need to have different structure? They don't. If you ever end up in a situation where you feel they do, the correct solution is typically instead to split the component into multiple, different components, only some of which will be used for any given entity. This is basically the same as defining a schema for an SQL table. A component is just a set of state, there is no requirement for it to map 1-to-1 to a specific functionality. > What benefits justify this extremely tight coupling? The most commonly stated one is speed. ECS was adopted first in game design because it is just so much faster. On modern OoO cpus it's typically something like 5-10x faster than traversing an object graph. On the previous generation consoles (PS3, XB360) with their in-order CPUs and crappy load/store subsystems, it could easily be 20x-50x faster. I don't know how relevant this is to your typical GUI, though; the speedup in an ECS comes from linear memory access, which means that the prefetchers make sure every memory access is an L1 access, which is great when you have a game that has thousands of entities, which don't fit into any cache. But just how many GUIs have enough state to overflow the L1 anyway? However, speed is not the only benefit. This is somewhat subjective, but having implemented similar logic for ECS and OO based games, I feel that the logic is almost always much clearer, more understandable and less buggy in the ECS versions. Basically, in OO doing things that have cross-cutting concerns tends to get split into many small parts done in multiple places, and it's hard to understand the whole system at once. In an ECS, the logic for one system is implemented in one place, it is always just a transformation that reads in some data, does some computation on it, and writes out some data, without complex control flow. It's so much easier to understand and test. > It makes it impossible to write generic container types. An example of a Generic container type is AnyMap, which holds one value of each type (and each value will typically be either a straight Vec for small/common components, or some kind of more complex set for components that hold a lot of data.) (edit: looked up old numbers and found that 100x was pushing it, even on Xenon. 50x ought to be realistic.)
- philipov 8y ago
  Thanks, i'm starting to see how this does naturally encourage organizing type extension around composable traits rather than inheritance
tdsamardzhiev 8y ago
Everything we ever write as programmers is trading one set of problems for another. The key thing is to identify which problems matter the most.

steveklabnik 8y ago

I mean, that's sorta the point of the talk. Did you watch it? > This sounds like it is just going to trade one set of problems for another. Sure, that's exactly what a tradeoff is. > what substantiates the claim that it is generally superior? I don't think the claim is that it is always superior. Oh, and I would see this refactor of a decoupling. The issue is that, if you’re trying to process Players in certain ways, the fact that the name and health are coupled together in a single struct is an issue. This pulls them apart.

db48x 8y ago

It's frequently done that way for performance. Imagine a game of Starcraft, with 1000 zerglings rushing your base. The game has to repeatedly loop over all the zerglings to move them. Since there are lots of other fields tracking all of the other data about each zergling, the normal AOS approach has poor data locality; you load a cache line and then you only touch a few bytes of it. With the SOA approach you're looping over an array of positions, so every byte that you fetch from memory ends up being used.

LBarret 8y ago
I agree with you but this I am not sure it is the right example. In this case, the position of the zergs would be indirectly a component. You would have arrays of struct Zergs, each would only have a ref (or an index) to an arrays of positions. this array would be updated efficiently.
- db48x 8y ago
  Yes, you could do that, but then you don't have SOA or AOS, you have SORTA (struct of references to arrays).

raphlinus 8y ago

As steveklabnik says, it absolutely is about tradeoffs. The anymap crate may provide enough of "generic container types" to be useful, and can avoid a lot of repetition of per-type code. A graph with heterogeneous node types is definitely possible, Box<Any> is one solution and there are others.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

"What if elements of the same collection need to have different structure?" The answer is, they usually don't.

meheleventyone 8y ago
And even if you did with Rust you could theoretically use enums to achieve it (or a union in C).

Tuna-Fish 8y ago

> What if elements of the same collection need to have different structure? They don't. If you ever end up in a situation where you feel they do, the correct solution is typically instead to split the component into multiple, different components, only some of which will be used for any given entity. This is basically the same as defining a schema for an SQL table. A component is just a set of state, there is no requirement for it to map 1-to-1 to a specific functionality. > What benefits justify this extremely tight coupling? The most commonly stated one is speed. ECS was adopted first in game design because it is just so much faster. On modern OoO cpus it's typically something like 5-10x faster than traversing an object graph. On the previous generation consoles (PS3, XB360) with their in-order CPUs and crappy load/store subsystems, it could easily be 20x-50x faster. I don't know how relevant this is to your typical GUI, though; the speedup in an ECS comes from linear memory access, which means that the prefetchers make sure every memory access is an L1 access, which is great when you have a game that has thousands of entities, which don't fit into any cache. But just how many GUIs have enough state to overflow the L1 anyway? However, speed is not the only benefit. This is somewhat subjective, but having implemented similar logic for ECS and OO based games, I feel that the logic is almost always much clearer, more understandable and less buggy in the ECS versions. Basically, in OO doing things that have cross-cutting concerns tends to get split into many small parts done in multiple places, and it's hard to understand the whole system at once. In an ECS, the logic for one system is implemented in one place, it is always just a transformation that reads in some data, does some computation on it, and writes out some data, without complex control flow. It's so much easier to understand and test. > It makes it impossible to write generic container types. An example of a Generic container type is AnyMap, which holds one value of each type (and each value will typically be either a straight Vec for small/common components, or some kind of more complex set for components that hold a lot of data.) (edit: looked up old numbers and found that 100x was pushing it, even on Xenon. 50x ought to be realistic.)

philipov 8y ago
Thanks, i'm starting to see how this does naturally encourage organizing type extension around composable traits rather than inheritance

tdsamardzhiev 8y ago

Everything we ever write as programmers is trading one set of problems for another. The key thing is to identify which problems matter the most.