4 ms·

It's also the country that lifted 3-500 million people out of poverty in the last 30 years. And haven't invaded anybody in the last 60-70. Just to provide a l

It's also the country that lifted 3-500 million people out of poverty in the last 30 years. And haven't invaded anybody in the last 60-70. Just to provide a little balance. I'm worried about Xi's direction too, but overall we could do a lot worse as far as major powers to share the globe with. You're 100% right about the market protectionism stuff, though. (sidenote, the implication that Great Leap Forward was intentional is a little disrespectful, IMO -- that's not how it happened).

ilamont 8y ago
And haven't invaded anybody in the last 60-70 Except Tibet (https://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/chinese-invade-tibet https://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/chinese-invad...), Vietnam (https://thediplomat.com/2017/02/the-bitter-legacy-of-the-1979-china-vietnam-war/ https://thediplomat.com/2017/02/the-bitter-legacy-of-the-197...), India (https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs/story/india-china-war-of-1962-839077-2016-11-21 https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs...), islands in the South China Sea claimed by other countries (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/08/27/neighbors-square-off-with-beijing-in-south-china-sea/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/08/27/neighbor...), and unsuccessful attempts to seize islands controlled by Taiwan in the Taiwan Strait (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis).
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  I forgot about the Vietnam thing. My bad, 40. Still a very peaceful record compared to ourselves over the time period. Why's everybody so invested up and loaded for bear with factoids about how China is so bad? Have we terminally entered the Thucydides trap?
  - Analemma_ 8y ago
    There are ways to avoid the Thucydides trap, but they don't involve clapping your hands over your ears and pretending everything is fine when it is not. No matter what they like to claim, China is an aggressive expansionist power, and simply ignoring that reality is not going to accomplish anything.
    - yourbandsucks 8y ago
      I'm with you, except for that 'aggressive expansionist power' thing. I'm seeing one 27-day long aggressive war in 1979, previous ones are 1960s or before? And some current day peaceful-yet-obnoxious saber rattling about the South China Sea? (completely oppose them on that BTW). That's... really not 'aggressive expansionist power', as far as these things go. France, for example, has been in more war over the last 30 or 60 years. Britain MUCH more war. US and Russia? Don't get me started. China is by far the least warlike Security Council member, and it's quantifiable. I'm all about spreading enlightenment values. Let's try not to look like total hypocritical a-holes and maybe we'll be successful.
  - carapace 8y ago
    "The Romans never allowed a trouble spot to remain simply to avoid going to war over it, because they knew that wars don't just go away, they are only postponed to someone else's advantage. Therefore, they made war with Philip and Antiochus in Greece, in order not to have to fight them in Italy... They never went by that saying which you constantly hear from the wiseacres of our day, that time heals all things. They trusted rather their own character and prudence — knowing perfectly well that time contains the seeds of all things, good as well as bad." ~ Machiavelli YMMV
  - ionised 8y ago
    Sports team politics. They bad. We good. Even when facts suggest you're both different shades of bad.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Tibet was theirs for century though. And it, plus all the rest, are neighbours they have disputes with. Not random countries 10000 of miles away they felt like bossing around...
  - iforgotpassword 8y ago
    Exactly, but that doesn't go well with the murrican narrative, so you're being down voted.
  - sgnelson 8y ago
    So it's cool to invade countries next door if you have a dispute with them. But not okay if they're not your neighbors. What if they're technically not your neighbors, but still only like 100 kilometers away? Is that okay?
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >So it's cool to invade countries next door if you have a dispute with them. Straw-man much? It's not cool (and I didn't say that), but it's understandable. Neighbors have disputes, and that has been the case since forever, and it's understandable because they have common borders to settle (which are not god given), shared history, and so on. Countries meddling with countries in the other end of the world just have imperialism and "national interests" to cheap oil and enforcing their preferred policies and ideology. >What if they're technically not your neighbors, but still only like 100 kilometers away? Is that okay? What if we stop asking silly questions and apply the principle of charity and/or common sense? And yes, with nearby countries it's still natural to have disputes over e.g. this or that natural resource you both claim, this or that past war or whatever. Now, France with Vietnam, the UK in Cyprus, or the US in Korea, not so much.
      - sgnelson 8y ago
        I'm sorry, I was trying to better understand your argument which seemed to be focused on geographic distance as a form of whether it was acceptable or not to have armed conflict.
eastendguy 8y ago
> And haven't invaded anybody in the last 60-70. China is threatening Taiwan with war.
- rokyno 8y ago
  And by China's definition, that's just a civil war if it happens
  - platinumrad 8y ago
    And by the definition of one of the two major Taiwanese political parties as well. From Wikipedia: "The Kuomintang holds the "One China Principle" and maintains its claim that under the ROC Constitution (passed by the Kuomintang government in 1947 in Nanjing) the ROC has sovereignty over most of China (including by their interpretation both mainland China and Taiwan)...Former ROC President Ma Ying-jeou had re-asserted claims on mainland China as late as October 8, 2008."
    - eastendguy 8y ago
      "claims on mainland in 2008"? Do you have a source or link for that? It's not here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Ying-jeou#View_on_independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Ying-jeou#View_on_independe...
      - platinumrad 8y ago
        "Ma said under the ROC Constitution, the ROC “definitely is an independent sovereign state, and mainland [sic] China is also part of the territory of the ROC.” The interview was published yesterday. Ma said despite the stipulation of the ROC Constitution, Taiwan cannot recognize the existence of another country, nor does China want to recognize Taiwan. In other words, under the ROC Constitution, “mainland China” is not a country." from http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/10/08/2003425320 http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/10/08/2... via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy
sgnelson 8y ago
That's some nice revisionist history. I guess the whole "let's take over Islands in the South China Sea, and then convert them into military bases" doesn't count? Why is it that Taiwan spends billions of dollars on US weapons? Why is Japan increasing their military forces? Are they afraid of Godzilla? China is trying to become a super power, as every great nation does. I've yet to see a nation do so peacefully. Just because they haven't yet launched a truly massive "peace keeping" mission.. well, I think it's a bit naive to believe they won't. History is a very useful tool, but you can't solely rely on an actor's past actions to predict the future. (Also, I won't be replying to any whataboutisms.)
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  It's just history. It's not revisionist. I'm really impressed by the box you just built, though: 1) China isn't perfect 2) I won't tolerate comparisons to other world powers, that's whataboutism 3) Therefore, China is black-and-white evil.

ilamont 8y ago

And haven't invaded anybody in the last 60-70 Except Tibet (https://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/chinese-invade-tibet https://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/chinese-invad...), Vietnam (https://thediplomat.com/2017/02/the-bitter-legacy-of-the-1979-china-vietnam-war/ https://thediplomat.com/2017/02/the-bitter-legacy-of-the-197...), India (https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs/story/india-china-war-of-1962-839077-2016-11-21 https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs...), islands in the South China Sea claimed by other countries (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/08/27/neighbors-square-off-with-beijing-in-south-china-sea/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/08/27/neighbor...), and unsuccessful attempts to seize islands controlled by Taiwan in the Taiwan Strait (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis).

yourbandsucks 8y ago
I forgot about the Vietnam thing. My bad, 40. Still a very peaceful record compared to ourselves over the time period. Why's everybody so invested up and loaded for bear with factoids about how China is so bad? Have we terminally entered the Thucydides trap?
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  There are ways to avoid the Thucydides trap, but they don't involve clapping your hands over your ears and pretending everything is fine when it is not. No matter what they like to claim, China is an aggressive expansionist power, and simply ignoring that reality is not going to accomplish anything.
  - yourbandsucks 8y ago
    I'm with you, except for that 'aggressive expansionist power' thing. I'm seeing one 27-day long aggressive war in 1979, previous ones are 1960s or before? And some current day peaceful-yet-obnoxious saber rattling about the South China Sea? (completely oppose them on that BTW). That's... really not 'aggressive expansionist power', as far as these things go. France, for example, has been in more war over the last 30 or 60 years. Britain MUCH more war. US and Russia? Don't get me started. China is by far the least warlike Security Council member, and it's quantifiable. I'm all about spreading enlightenment values. Let's try not to look like total hypocritical a-holes and maybe we'll be successful.
- carapace 8y ago
  "The Romans never allowed a trouble spot to remain simply to avoid going to war over it, because they knew that wars don't just go away, they are only postponed to someone else's advantage. Therefore, they made war with Philip and Antiochus in Greece, in order not to have to fight them in Italy... They never went by that saying which you constantly hear from the wiseacres of our day, that time heals all things. They trusted rather their own character and prudence — knowing perfectly well that time contains the seeds of all things, good as well as bad." ~ Machiavelli YMMV
- ionised 8y ago
  Sports team politics. They bad. We good. Even when facts suggest you're both different shades of bad.
coldtea 8y ago
Tibet was theirs for century though. And it, plus all the rest, are neighbours they have disputes with. Not random countries 10000 of miles away they felt like bossing around...
- iforgotpassword 8y ago
  Exactly, but that doesn't go well with the murrican narrative, so you're being down voted.
- sgnelson 8y ago
  So it's cool to invade countries next door if you have a dispute with them. But not okay if they're not your neighbors. What if they're technically not your neighbors, but still only like 100 kilometers away? Is that okay?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >So it's cool to invade countries next door if you have a dispute with them. Straw-man much? It's not cool (and I didn't say that), but it's understandable. Neighbors have disputes, and that has been the case since forever, and it's understandable because they have common borders to settle (which are not god given), shared history, and so on. Countries meddling with countries in the other end of the world just have imperialism and "national interests" to cheap oil and enforcing their preferred policies and ideology. >What if they're technically not your neighbors, but still only like 100 kilometers away? Is that okay? What if we stop asking silly questions and apply the principle of charity and/or common sense? And yes, with nearby countries it's still natural to have disputes over e.g. this or that natural resource you both claim, this or that past war or whatever. Now, France with Vietnam, the UK in Cyprus, or the US in Korea, not so much.
    - sgnelson 8y ago
      I'm sorry, I was trying to better understand your argument which seemed to be focused on geographic distance as a form of whether it was acceptable or not to have armed conflict.

eastendguy 8y ago

> And haven't invaded anybody in the last 60-70. China is threatening Taiwan with war.

rokyno 8y ago
And by China's definition, that's just a civil war if it happens
- platinumrad 8y ago
  And by the definition of one of the two major Taiwanese political parties as well. From Wikipedia: "The Kuomintang holds the "One China Principle" and maintains its claim that under the ROC Constitution (passed by the Kuomintang government in 1947 in Nanjing) the ROC has sovereignty over most of China (including by their interpretation both mainland China and Taiwan)...Former ROC President Ma Ying-jeou had re-asserted claims on mainland China as late as October 8, 2008."
  - eastendguy 8y ago
    "claims on mainland in 2008"? Do you have a source or link for that? It's not here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Ying-jeou#View_on_independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Ying-jeou#View_on_independe...
    - platinumrad 8y ago
      "Ma said under the ROC Constitution, the ROC “definitely is an independent sovereign state, and mainland [sic] China is also part of the territory of the ROC.” The interview was published yesterday. Ma said despite the stipulation of the ROC Constitution, Taiwan cannot recognize the existence of another country, nor does China want to recognize Taiwan. In other words, under the ROC Constitution, “mainland China” is not a country." from http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/10/08/2003425320 http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/10/08/2... via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy

sgnelson 8y ago

That's some nice revisionist history. I guess the whole "let's take over Islands in the South China Sea, and then convert them into military bases" doesn't count? Why is it that Taiwan spends billions of dollars on US weapons? Why is Japan increasing their military forces? Are they afraid of Godzilla? China is trying to become a super power, as every great nation does. I've yet to see a nation do so peacefully. Just because they haven't yet launched a truly massive "peace keeping" mission.. well, I think it's a bit naive to believe they won't. History is a very useful tool, but you can't solely rely on an actor's past actions to predict the future. (Also, I won't be replying to any whataboutisms.)

yourbandsucks 8y ago
It's just history. It's not revisionist. I'm really impressed by the box you just built, though: 1) China isn't perfect 2) I won't tolerate comparisons to other world powers, that's whataboutism 3) Therefore, China is black-and-white evil.