4 ms·

> To put forth either of these as reasons to restrict immigration from one set of countries, and encourage immigration from another, almost always gets you labe

by whack 8y ago

> To put forth either of these as reasons to restrict immigration from one set of countries, and encourage immigration from another, almost always gets you labeled a racist That is the very definition of racism. You're ascribing negative traits to specific races/ethnicities/countries, and using that as justification for discriminating against all individuals from that demographic. If you want to advocate for racist policies as being pragmatic and in the public interests, go ahead and make that argument. But at least have the honesty to call it what it is. FWIW, I don't think racism and stereotypes make for good public policy, no matter how "true" they may seem. This was the same logic used to discriminate against Irish, Italian and Eastern-European immigrants, and I don't think it's worth going down that same road once again. We can build a sensible immigration policy based on individual merit, without debasing ourselves into racist ideologies.

simonsarris 8y ago
So you must believe the 1985 Schengen Agreement to be a racist policy, then. Or any international treaty delineated by a set of countries. That's quite the odd position in my opinion, I don't share your beliefs.
belorn 8y ago
When the right talk about toxic and destructive cultures and suggest policy to address it then that is racism and discrimination. When the left talk about toxic and destructive masculinity and suggest policy to address it then that is using clear language and decisive action about a structural issue in society. We could be making sensible policies based on each individuals own merit and it would be great. No more women vs men, immigrant vs nationalist, white vs black. It is the future I would like to have but what I am getting is the choice between two ideologies who each ascribing negative traits to their own set of races and gender, with policies to match.
- whack 8y ago
  I'd consider myself a liberal, and I'm opposed to any and all attempts to discriminate against an entire demographic group, based on negative traits that are (supposedly) statistically common. Regardless of whether the group in question is Mexicans/Whites/Females/Males/Muslims. I would consider anyone espousing such ideology to be racist/sexist by definition. There are certainly fringe bigots in the left, but I'm sure the majority of Clinton voters feel similarly as I do.
  - smsm42 8y ago
    > I'd consider myself a liberal, and I'm opposed to any and all attempts to discriminate against an entire demographic group, based on negative traits that are (supposedly) statistically common Good for you. Any ideas about how to get people talking about "toxic masculinity" and "evil whiteness" day and night on board? How about people that call for "white genocide"? > I would consider anyone espousing such ideology to be racist/sexist by definition. OK. But would the consequences of this definition for someone publicly talking about "toxic masculinity" as something common to most/all males be the same as being an open misogynist, for example? And if not, do you think it's wrong and how would you propose to change it? > I'm sure the majority of Clinton voters feel similarly as I do. Do they? How comes somebody like Farrakhan is still very much welcome to the polite society on the left?
  - belorn 8y ago
    I am glad to hear someone with that view. I would like it to be fringe, and while the last weeks election here in Swedish is plainly showing how mainstream generalizations like "mens violence again women" are, I feel like looking at like it is fringe might just help push it to actually become fringe. Equality of this kind is a topic that could create common ground between liberal left and libertarian right, with policies and laws that focus on the individual and human behavior rather than groups. It would mean giving up having a group that each side can point at and blame for all faults in society, and the cynical in me would say that this means its political impossible, but it would make for a better world and possible push people to towards each other rather than apart.
    - whack 8y ago
      I agree with you. There's nothing more dehumanizing than being insulted or discriminated against, because of the demographic group you belong to. I think we should all speak up against it when we see it happening.
coffeeonrollt 8y ago
Lot of people don't seem to realise that the view points they hold are racist and get angry when called out. Case in point, in India I have seen people generally calling lower cast people unfit or outright stupid for a job by cherry picking examples and generalising it across the entire group. When called out, they often respond with anger similar to the parent. In their viewpoint, they are making a judgement based on "facts".

by whack 8y ago

simonsarris 8y ago

So you must believe the 1985 Schengen Agreement to be a racist policy, then. Or any international treaty delineated by a set of countries. That's quite the odd position in my opinion, I don't share your beliefs.

belorn 8y ago

When the right talk about toxic and destructive cultures and suggest policy to address it then that is racism and discrimination. When the left talk about toxic and destructive masculinity and suggest policy to address it then that is using clear language and decisive action about a structural issue in society. We could be making sensible policies based on each individuals own merit and it would be great. No more women vs men, immigrant vs nationalist, white vs black. It is the future I would like to have but what I am getting is the choice between two ideologies who each ascribing negative traits to their own set of races and gender, with policies to match.

whack 8y ago
I'd consider myself a liberal, and I'm opposed to any and all attempts to discriminate against an entire demographic group, based on negative traits that are (supposedly) statistically common. Regardless of whether the group in question is Mexicans/Whites/Females/Males/Muslims. I would consider anyone espousing such ideology to be racist/sexist by definition. There are certainly fringe bigots in the left, but I'm sure the majority of Clinton voters feel similarly as I do.
- smsm42 8y ago
  > I'd consider myself a liberal, and I'm opposed to any and all attempts to discriminate against an entire demographic group, based on negative traits that are (supposedly) statistically common Good for you. Any ideas about how to get people talking about "toxic masculinity" and "evil whiteness" day and night on board? How about people that call for "white genocide"? > I would consider anyone espousing such ideology to be racist/sexist by definition. OK. But would the consequences of this definition for someone publicly talking about "toxic masculinity" as something common to most/all males be the same as being an open misogynist, for example? And if not, do you think it's wrong and how would you propose to change it? > I'm sure the majority of Clinton voters feel similarly as I do. Do they? How comes somebody like Farrakhan is still very much welcome to the polite society on the left?
- belorn 8y ago
  I am glad to hear someone with that view. I would like it to be fringe, and while the last weeks election here in Swedish is plainly showing how mainstream generalizations like "mens violence again women" are, I feel like looking at like it is fringe might just help push it to actually become fringe. Equality of this kind is a topic that could create common ground between liberal left and libertarian right, with policies and laws that focus on the individual and human behavior rather than groups. It would mean giving up having a group that each side can point at and blame for all faults in society, and the cynical in me would say that this means its political impossible, but it would make for a better world and possible push people to towards each other rather than apart.
  - whack 8y ago
    I agree with you. There's nothing more dehumanizing than being insulted or discriminated against, because of the demographic group you belong to. I think we should all speak up against it when we see it happening.

coffeeonrollt 8y ago

Lot of people don't seem to realise that the view points they hold are racist and get angry when called out. Case in point, in India I have seen people generally calling lower cast people unfit or outright stupid for a job by cherry picking examples and generalising it across the entire group. When called out, they often respond with anger similar to the parent. In their viewpoint, they are making a judgement based on "facts".