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This means that the public is subsidizing a company owned by the richest man in the world because he refuses to pay his employees a living wage. Doesn't this so

This means that the public is subsidizing a company owned by the richest man in the world because he refuses to pay his employees a living wage. Doesn't this sound wrong?

rahul003 8y ago
But isn't he paying market wages for them? Similar to what the other companies are paying them.
- anthanm 8y ago
  No, because the government subsidizing it reduces the amount people are able to work for. If it's a choice between starving being worked extremely hard by Amazon vs just starving, why would people be choosing the former?
- rifung 8y ago
  Yes and presumably other companies should also pay them more but I suppose the blame is more focused on Amazon/Bezos because he is the richest person in the world and this article is about him.
civilian 8y ago
Flip it around. These people needed government support, and Bezos is giving them a job, so now they need less government support than they did before. Bezos is helping to give money to people who would have otherwise been totally on welfare.
- wnkrshm 8y ago
  Turn it around again, Amazon has underrun the competition that was paying living wages before and destroyed the jobs those people had before, by not paying taxes.
  - civilian 8y ago
    Their competitors were not paying "living" wages. Brick and mortar retail, especially mom&pop stores, were notorious for paying low wages. Destroying jobs is a good thing. It means that Amazon can pass on the savings to consumers. I know that Amazon is disliked in Seattle & the bay area, but if you go around the rest of the country, people love amazon.
tehsauce 8y ago
It's wrong but how is it the company's fault? It is the government's responsibility to set a minimum wage. How come the blame doesn't fall on the policy makers and lobbyists?
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  It does. You're left with little recourse when policy makers and lobbyists are apathetic or actually working against the public good (by refusing to raise the minimum wage, which hasn't increased in some places for over a decade, and should be indexed to inflation). Can you not assign blame to someone abusing a broken system? Surely you can. They are still abusing the system.
- anthanm 8y ago
  The tech companies are some of the biggest lobbyists around. Large retail, I would guess, are as well. They also put in massive amounts of effort to avoid unionization.
EB66 8y ago
We can argue until we're blue in the face about whose fault it is and who should be responsible for ensuring workers are paid a livable wage, but I would hope that we can all agree on this: If you work full-time and you do a good job, then you should earn a wage that you can live on.
- partiallypro 8y ago
  The question is, "what is a living wage?" The goal posts keep shifting...which doesn't help the case for this. If it were just "you can afford rent and food" that would be fine, I suppose...but it has now extended to so many other things that I wouldn't really call necessities.
  - maxsilver 8y ago
    What do you consider living to be? Should Amazon workers only barely be able to afford rent and food. Should they have $0 left over after rent+groceries? $1? What amount is reasonable, vs what amount becomes excessive? What if they have a child? Or an elderly parent? Or student loans? > but it has now extended to so many other things that I wouldn't really call necessities. What ridiculous lavish spending do you think Amazon warehouse workers are capable of buying with their (on average ~$12/hr) wages? The general argument is that a living wage should cover life. All people are entitled to enough money that they can pay for rent, pay for food, pay for healthcare, pay for basic transportation, and have some amount of discretionary money to spend anyway they want (like say, raising a family, or continuing their education, or having a hobby, or volunteering for a cause their passionate about, or whatever)
    - logfromblammo 8y ago
      I consider it everything up to the level of participation in democratic politics and civil society. Different people may put different needs and functions above or below their line of demarcation. breathable air drinkable water nutritious food safe shelter quiet and dark sleeping area secure property storage equal access to the commons basic education job skills education scientific/analytic education access to communication access to markets personal mobility medical care social contact family formation social organization political influence .------------------------------ < this is where I draw my line '------------------------------ mercantile education philosophical education luxury goods psychological individuation independent exploration or introspection artistic and aesthetic pursuits finding a meaning in life spiritual enlightenment Veblen goods
dominotw 8y ago
Why isn't 'living wage' != 'minimum wage' Democracy is not working? Whats the alternative.
justaguyhere 8y ago
Yeah, it does. But Bezos/Amazon is simply taking advantage of the laws and the political system (just like many corporations pay so little tax). The real solution is to raise the minimum wage, plug tax loopholes etc and not expect billionaires to play fair, out of the goodness of their hearts.
stale2002 8y ago
What's even the point of government services then? If I use roads or public parks, or my social security, does that mean that my employer never paid me enough, then? And we already have a concept that covers this. It is called the minimum wage. It makes no sense to talk about government services that people are using when you should instead just raise the minimum wage.

This means that the public is subsidizing a company owned by the richest man in the world because he refuses to pay his employees a living wage. Doesn't this sound wrong?

rahul003 8y ago

But isn't he paying market wages for them? Similar to what the other companies are paying them.

anthanm 8y ago
No, because the government subsidizing it reduces the amount people are able to work for. If it's a choice between starving being worked extremely hard by Amazon vs just starving, why would people be choosing the former?
rifung 8y ago
Yes and presumably other companies should also pay them more but I suppose the blame is more focused on Amazon/Bezos because he is the richest person in the world and this article is about him.

civilian 8y ago

Flip it around. These people needed government support, and Bezos is giving them a job, so now they need less government support than they did before. Bezos is helping to give money to people who would have otherwise been totally on welfare.

wnkrshm 8y ago
Turn it around again, Amazon has underrun the competition that was paying living wages before and destroyed the jobs those people had before, by not paying taxes.
- civilian 8y ago
  Their competitors were not paying "living" wages. Brick and mortar retail, especially mom&pop stores, were notorious for paying low wages. Destroying jobs is a good thing. It means that Amazon can pass on the savings to consumers. I know that Amazon is disliked in Seattle & the bay area, but if you go around the rest of the country, people love amazon.

tehsauce 8y ago

It's wrong but how is it the company's fault? It is the government's responsibility to set a minimum wage. How come the blame doesn't fall on the policy makers and lobbyists?

toomuchtodo 8y ago
It does. You're left with little recourse when policy makers and lobbyists are apathetic or actually working against the public good (by refusing to raise the minimum wage, which hasn't increased in some places for over a decade, and should be indexed to inflation). Can you not assign blame to someone abusing a broken system? Surely you can. They are still abusing the system.
anthanm 8y ago
The tech companies are some of the biggest lobbyists around. Large retail, I would guess, are as well. They also put in massive amounts of effort to avoid unionization.

EB66 8y ago

We can argue until we're blue in the face about whose fault it is and who should be responsible for ensuring workers are paid a livable wage, but I would hope that we can all agree on this: If you work full-time and you do a good job, then you should earn a wage that you can live on.

partiallypro 8y ago
The question is, "what is a living wage?" The goal posts keep shifting...which doesn't help the case for this. If it were just "you can afford rent and food" that would be fine, I suppose...but it has now extended to so many other things that I wouldn't really call necessities.
- maxsilver 8y ago
  What do you consider living to be? Should Amazon workers only barely be able to afford rent and food. Should they have $0 left over after rent+groceries? $1? What amount is reasonable, vs what amount becomes excessive? What if they have a child? Or an elderly parent? Or student loans? > but it has now extended to so many other things that I wouldn't really call necessities. What ridiculous lavish spending do you think Amazon warehouse workers are capable of buying with their (on average ~$12/hr) wages? The general argument is that a living wage should cover life. All people are entitled to enough money that they can pay for rent, pay for food, pay for healthcare, pay for basic transportation, and have some amount of discretionary money to spend anyway they want (like say, raising a family, or continuing their education, or having a hobby, or volunteering for a cause their passionate about, or whatever)
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    I consider it everything up to the level of participation in democratic politics and civil society. Different people may put different needs and functions above or below their line of demarcation. breathable air drinkable water nutritious food safe shelter quiet and dark sleeping area secure property storage equal access to the commons basic education job skills education scientific/analytic education access to communication access to markets personal mobility medical care social contact family formation social organization political influence .------------------------------ < this is where I draw my line '------------------------------ mercantile education philosophical education luxury goods psychological individuation independent exploration or introspection artistic and aesthetic pursuits finding a meaning in life spiritual enlightenment Veblen goods

dominotw 8y ago

Why isn't 'living wage' != 'minimum wage' Democracy is not working? Whats the alternative.

justaguyhere 8y ago

Yeah, it does. But Bezos/Amazon is simply taking advantage of the laws and the political system (just like many corporations pay so little tax). The real solution is to raise the minimum wage, plug tax loopholes etc and not expect billionaires to play fair, out of the goodness of their hearts.

stale2002 8y ago

What's even the point of government services then? If I use roads or public parks, or my social security, does that mean that my employer never paid me enough, then? And we already have a concept that covers this. It is called the minimum wage. It makes no sense to talk about government services that people are using when you should instead just raise the minimum wage.