6 ms·

The conclusion is so premmature. What if ancient children, like modern children liked playing with crayons. Are we calling kids scribbling on the wall abstrac

The conclusion is so premmature. What if ancient children, like modern children liked playing with crayons. Are we calling kids scribbling on the wall abstract art now?

dmazin 8y ago
You're missing the point a little bit. "Abstract drawing" is the best description of the markings, not an argument that there was a culture of abstract art back then. (In the original paper -- the linked-to writeup is pretty poorly worded, yeah.) This drawing predates any drawings (as opposed to etchings) we know from humans by tens of thousands of years -- even if it's a child's doodling, it displays a level of cognition previously dated to much more modern times.
JoeAltmaier 8y ago
Lets not go overboard. The article was specific - the drawing was 'abstract' as versus 'figurative' or art representing a figure like an animal
black6 8y ago
My children’s art is definitely abstract most of the time.
afdsgujbuionio 8y ago
I'd call it that. It's not good abstract art, but it seems to me that children make deliberate decisions to make something that looks good.
bunderbunder 8y ago
Why not? It seems pretty trivial to me to say that art can encompass any creation of designs or patterns for pleasure, including scribbling and doodling. And scribbling and (some) doodling are pretty unambiguously abstract. Ergo, abstract art. It's hard for me to imagine a more Philistine sentiment than dismissing something as art on the grounds that, if a child can do it, it must not be art.
- vectorEQ 8y ago
  thank you
- mc32 8y ago
  I think the argument is it’s possible something looks abstract only because while wanting to draw something somewhat realistically or representative one ends up drawing abstractly for lack of ability to do more representative art. In other words reoresentative ability is forcing you to draw in a certain way where if you could you would draw a different way. I’ve seen kids frustrated because their “abstract art” didn’t look realistic enough and wanted an older kid or person to help them “draw better”.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  > And scribbling and (some) doodling are pretty unambiguously abstract. Abstractions of what? Surely to have an abstraction, you have to have a subject. If I'm drawing lines randomly, I'm not rendering an abstraction of anything.
  - bunderbunder 8y ago
    "Abstraction", in the verb sense, is the process of taking a subject that isn't abstract and making it more abstract. But that isn't the only way to produce an abstract image. For example, see abstract expressionism.
    - beaconstudios 8y ago
      true, but my point still holds for pure abstractions - drawing random lines is not creating a representation of an abstract concept. Unless you want to argue that any output you produce represents the abstraction of your brain's state (ie the random lines represent the firing of the neuronal pathways that are causing you to choose that specific arrangement of "random" lines), but that's pretty meta and outside what I think the common conception of abstract art is.
      - 8y ago
EADGBE 8y ago
FWIW, it's always been the running joke that it's "abstract art".
SteveGerencser 8y ago
When my kid was 3 she got me an A in an art class because she scribbled all over my chalk drawing with crayon. The professor LOVED it, complimented me on "finally" being able to let go and be free with my art. It didn't go well when I told him my 3 year old scribbled all over it and I just turned it in anyway because he was a nut job and I thought he would love it.
- arayh 8y ago
  I love your integrity for admitting that to your professor. He probably initially thought you were channeling your younger self through expression of art.
- dzdt 8y ago
  Turning someone else's work in as your own? Lucky he didn't fail you on the spot!
  - weberc2 8y ago
    To be fair, he created the child, so there's that...
    - buckminster 8y ago
      It's a very long term generative art project.
      - ISL 8y ago
        One can argue that it is one of the greatest art projects.
    - IIAOPSW 8y ago
      Half the DNA was plagiarized.
      - weberc2 8y ago
tialaramex 8y ago
Didn't I read somewhere that children start out as abstract artists and only begin attempting realism after they discover that the adults go "Oh, a tree?" when looking at their new work "How it feels when I wake up from a nice nap" just because it's brown and green.

The conclusion is so premmature. What if ancient children, like modern children liked playing with crayons. Are we calling kids scribbling on the wall abstract art now?

dmazin 8y ago

You're missing the point a little bit. "Abstract drawing" is the best description of the markings, not an argument that there was a culture of abstract art back then. (In the original paper -- the linked-to writeup is pretty poorly worded, yeah.) This drawing predates any drawings (as opposed to etchings) we know from humans by tens of thousands of years -- even if it's a child's doodling, it displays a level of cognition previously dated to much more modern times.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago

Lets not go overboard. The article was specific - the drawing was 'abstract' as versus 'figurative' or art representing a figure like an animal

black6 8y ago

My children’s art is definitely abstract most of the time.

afdsgujbuionio 8y ago

I'd call it that. It's not good abstract art, but it seems to me that children make deliberate decisions to make something that looks good.

bunderbunder 8y ago

Why not? It seems pretty trivial to me to say that art can encompass any creation of designs or patterns for pleasure, including scribbling and doodling. And scribbling and (some) doodling are pretty unambiguously abstract. Ergo, abstract art. It's hard for me to imagine a more Philistine sentiment than dismissing something as art on the grounds that, if a child can do it, it must not be art.

vectorEQ 8y ago
thank you
mc32 8y ago
I think the argument is it’s possible something looks abstract only because while wanting to draw something somewhat realistically or representative one ends up drawing abstractly for lack of ability to do more representative art. In other words reoresentative ability is forcing you to draw in a certain way where if you could you would draw a different way. I’ve seen kids frustrated because their “abstract art” didn’t look realistic enough and wanted an older kid or person to help them “draw better”.
beaconstudios 8y ago
> And scribbling and (some) doodling are pretty unambiguously abstract. Abstractions of what? Surely to have an abstraction, you have to have a subject. If I'm drawing lines randomly, I'm not rendering an abstraction of anything.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  "Abstraction", in the verb sense, is the process of taking a subject that isn't abstract and making it more abstract. But that isn't the only way to produce an abstract image. For example, see abstract expressionism.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    true, but my point still holds for pure abstractions - drawing random lines is not creating a representation of an abstract concept. Unless you want to argue that any output you produce represents the abstraction of your brain's state (ie the random lines represent the firing of the neuronal pathways that are causing you to choose that specific arrangement of "random" lines), but that's pretty meta and outside what I think the common conception of abstract art is.
    - 8y ago

EADGBE 8y ago

FWIW, it's always been the running joke that it's "abstract art".

SteveGerencser 8y ago

When my kid was 3 she got me an A in an art class because she scribbled all over my chalk drawing with crayon. The professor LOVED it, complimented me on "finally" being able to let go and be free with my art. It didn't go well when I told him my 3 year old scribbled all over it and I just turned it in anyway because he was a nut job and I thought he would love it.

arayh 8y ago
I love your integrity for admitting that to your professor. He probably initially thought you were channeling your younger self through expression of art.
dzdt 8y ago
Turning someone else's work in as your own? Lucky he didn't fail you on the spot!
- weberc2 8y ago
  To be fair, he created the child, so there's that...
  - buckminster 8y ago
    It's a very long term generative art project.
    - ISL 8y ago
      One can argue that it is one of the greatest art projects.
  - IIAOPSW 8y ago
    Half the DNA was plagiarized.
    - weberc2 8y ago

tialaramex 8y ago

Didn't I read somewhere that children start out as abstract artists and only begin attempting realism after they discover that the adults go "Oh, a tree?" when looking at their new work "How it feels when I wake up from a nice nap" just because it's brown and green.