8 ms·

Taking Germany as the example I know about. > What percentage of the population is able to take advantage of the free college? About 30%. Note that this is ro

Taking Germany as the example I know about. > What percentage of the population is able to take advantage of the free college? About 30%. Note that this is roughly the same as the percentage of Americans with a college degree. So it's not some crazy cut-throat system and is not a lottery. Basically, people who know they want to go to college, plan ahead, and apply themselves, can mostly do so. People who want the opportunity sometimes don't get it, but that's true everywhere. And there are a ton of stories of people moving from the non-university track into the university track even later in life. So there's a lot of mobility if you apply yourself. > What are the job prospects like for those who don't go to college? See the example OECD dataset here for "upper secondary; non-tertiary": https://data.oecd.org/unemp/unemployment-rates-by-education-level.htm https://data.oecd.org/unemp/unemployment-rates-by-education-... tl;dr: quite good. Better than or comparable to the US.

imgabe 8y ago
If roughly the same percentage of people end up with a college degree, then what would be the advantage of the US changing to that system? If it produces the same result, it's not really better. It's just a different way of accomplishing the same thing.
- Kurtz79 8y ago
  In one case, people that went to college but were not able to take advantage of the degree would still not have a crippling debt to pay.
  - imgabe 8y ago
    The loans are a problem, but we could fix that by making them dischargeable in bankruptcy and having the government stop subsidizing them. Then banks would have to make a realistic assessment of a student's ability to repay, loan rates and college prices would adjust accordingly. But, if I go to college and dick around and fail out, why should taxpayers have to pay my tuition?
    - fifnir 8y ago
      If I plant wheat and some of the plants don't produce fruit, should I stop watering all of them and demand that they each find its own water source ? If I try breeding chickens and some of them stop laying eggs, should I abandon the whole endeavor and start buying my chickens from the local supermarket because some chicken are dicking around? All national efforts are going to have some waste, it's inevitable and I think we can more than comfortably afford it. Our job should not be to scrutinize every detail in order to minimize waste (of course we should be doing that as well) but rather to make sure that every wheat seed and every chicken have all they need in order to fully develop themselves to the best of their abilities.
      - imgabe 8y ago
        Are you saying humans are basically farm animals to be tended to by the government? Personally I would prefer to be considered a sentient being in my own right with my own rights and responsibilities. There is a reason we expend so much energy and care in looking after wheat and chickens. It's so we can eat them.
        fifnir 8y ago
        It's called a metaphor, typically children start distinguishing them in written speech at about 4yo.
        imgabe 8y ago
        It is a very telling metaphor in terms of attitudes regarding relative roles of individuals and government. I'm not sure if you're American or not, but many Americans would recoil at the idea that they should be treated like a farm animal. An animal on a farm might be treated well (at the discretion of the farmer) (until they are slaughtered), but they aren't free. An animal in the wild has freedom, but not security. America heavily favors the latter, or at least it used to, times may be a'changing.
        8y ago
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  The American system is a money making machine that uses education merely as a lure. Everything is constructed around maximizing income for the administrative staff: Pay the teachers as little as possible with no promise of tenure, attract as many wealthy foreign students as possible, raise the tuition by many multiples of the inflation rate, use athletics to create prestige.
rayiner 8y ago
> So it's not some crazy cut-throat system and is not a lottery. Basically, people who know they want to go to college, plan ahead, and apply themselves, can mostly do so. People who want the opportunity sometimes don't get it, but that's true everywhere. Limiting free college to 30% of the population would never work in the U.S. By 2025, more than half of high school graduates will be minorities, mostly socioeconomically disadvantaged minorities. Without getting into the "why," these groups score substantially lower on the metrics (test scores, sometimes straight-up IQ tests) that Germany uses to select the 30% of students who have access to college. To ensure that enough disadvantaged minorities would have access to free college, the U.S. would need the large majority of high school graduates to go to free college. That would make the program much more expensive than in Germany. Applying the German system to the U.S. unchanged would not only be politically impossible, but would be hugely regressive. It would be a massive taxpayer-funded program that would benefit primarily students that are advantaged to begin with. For the $75-billion estimated cost of free college, we could write a $5,000 check for each and every child under the poverty line, every year. That seems a lot better use of money than ensuring that a bunch of primary middle/upper middle class kids get free college.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  I think you might have misunderstood: About 30% of people are able to do the work, but it isn't limiting free college to 30% of the population. Instead, it is about 30% of the population that applies themselves to take advantage of it. If it comes up that 50% of the population qualifies for the education and follows through with it, the number would change to 50%. For many, all that is needed is to be upfront about what is required and make sure lower level schooling can provide what is needed. I'll add that you could take care of a lot of the rest of the things by having a strong support system. Only about 30% of americans have college degrees as it is. Not as much would change. If you take some other countries examples as well and include things like trade schools and things that would be an associates degree elsewhere, your number would be much higher. These sorts of programs are tracked seperately.
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > Limiting free college to 30% of the population would never work in the U.S. By 2025, more than half of high school graduates will be minorities, mostly socioeconomically disadvantaged minorities. Without getting into the "why," these groups score substantially lower on the metrics (test scores, sometimes straight-up IQ tests) that Germany uses to select the 30% of students who have access to college. To ensure that enough disadvantaged minorities would have access to free college, the U.S. would need the large majority of high school graduates to go to free college. That would make the program much more expensive than in Germany. It's a shame you're being downvoted, because you're right. To put it another way: the reason Germany, France, Spain, etc. are able to provide free education is twofold: 1) They provide education to a much smaller portion of the population than the US does (~25% in Germany compared to >45% the US). 2) They're content with having a system which reinforces racial inequalities from a very young age. The US education system, for all its faults, is actually quite good at providing opportunities for minorities in higher education, and the rates of degrees awarded bear this out. It's unpopular to point this out, but that's something that the German/French/etc. models don't do at all. Yes, the opportunities are available to people from any racial background in theory, but in practice, they mask significant racial disparities under the guise of being "colorblind".
mcguire 8y ago
"Germany proves tuition-free college is not a silver bullet for America’s education woes": (https://qz.com/812200/is-free-college-possible-germany-shows-there-are-downsides-to-tuition-free-college/ https://qz.com/812200/is-free-college-possible-germany-shows...) "German university enrollment rose by 22% as tuition disappeared...—while the number of Germans who opt instead for vocational education has declined. On the other hand, the cost to taxpayers of subsidizing higher education went up 37%. [Later:] ...The shift to dependence on government funding, combined with the increase in enrollment, has also meant a 10% decline in spending per student in the last few years, the OECD reports. Today, German public schools spend about $16,895 per student, compared with $27,924 per student in the United States." "In Germany, low-income students can apply for grants and loans totaling around €650 a month ($580) to pay for living expenses. Since almost all students live off campus, this creates an unanticipated outcome: Even in a country where universities don’t charge tuition, students are still graduating with debt....68% of German students work,... and “students from a lower socioeconomic background try to study faster.” Students are also more likely to choose practical subjects like marketing or human resources. Meanwhile medicine and law degrees, which take longer and therefore cost more, remain careers mostly for the wealthy." "Three-quarters of German’s adult college graduates have children who also earn university degrees, Woessmann said, compared to a 25% of adults who don’t have degrees. (In all, 57% of the equivalent of high school graduates go on to college here, the OECD reports, compared to what the Bureau of Labor Statistics says is 69% of their American counterparts.)" Then, there's "In Norway, where college is free, children of uneducated parents still don’t go", (https://hechingerreport.org/in-norway-where-college-is-free-children-of-uneducated-parents-still-dont-go/ https://hechingerreport.org/in-norway-where-college-is-free-...).

imgabe 8y ago

If roughly the same percentage of people end up with a college degree, then what would be the advantage of the US changing to that system? If it produces the same result, it's not really better. It's just a different way of accomplishing the same thing.

Kurtz79 8y ago
In one case, people that went to college but were not able to take advantage of the degree would still not have a crippling debt to pay.
- imgabe 8y ago
  The loans are a problem, but we could fix that by making them dischargeable in bankruptcy and having the government stop subsidizing them. Then banks would have to make a realistic assessment of a student's ability to repay, loan rates and college prices would adjust accordingly. But, if I go to college and dick around and fail out, why should taxpayers have to pay my tuition?
  - fifnir 8y ago
    If I plant wheat and some of the plants don't produce fruit, should I stop watering all of them and demand that they each find its own water source ? If I try breeding chickens and some of them stop laying eggs, should I abandon the whole endeavor and start buying my chickens from the local supermarket because some chicken are dicking around? All national efforts are going to have some waste, it's inevitable and I think we can more than comfortably afford it. Our job should not be to scrutinize every detail in order to minimize waste (of course we should be doing that as well) but rather to make sure that every wheat seed and every chicken have all they need in order to fully develop themselves to the best of their abilities.
    - imgabe 8y ago
      Are you saying humans are basically farm animals to be tended to by the government? Personally I would prefer to be considered a sentient being in my own right with my own rights and responsibilities. There is a reason we expend so much energy and care in looking after wheat and chickens. It's so we can eat them.
      - fifnir 8y ago
        It's called a metaphor, typically children start distinguishing them in written speech at about 4yo.
        imgabe 8y ago
        It is a very telling metaphor in terms of attitudes regarding relative roles of individuals and government. I'm not sure if you're American or not, but many Americans would recoil at the idea that they should be treated like a farm animal. An animal on a farm might be treated well (at the discretion of the farmer) (until they are slaughtered), but they aren't free. An animal in the wild has freedom, but not security. America heavily favors the latter, or at least it used to, times may be a'changing.
        8y ago
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
The American system is a money making machine that uses education merely as a lure. Everything is constructed around maximizing income for the administrative staff: Pay the teachers as little as possible with no promise of tenure, attract as many wealthy foreign students as possible, raise the tuition by many multiples of the inflation rate, use athletics to create prestige.

rayiner 8y ago

> So it's not some crazy cut-throat system and is not a lottery. Basically, people who know they want to go to college, plan ahead, and apply themselves, can mostly do so. People who want the opportunity sometimes don't get it, but that's true everywhere. Limiting free college to 30% of the population would never work in the U.S. By 2025, more than half of high school graduates will be minorities, mostly socioeconomically disadvantaged minorities. Without getting into the "why," these groups score substantially lower on the metrics (test scores, sometimes straight-up IQ tests) that Germany uses to select the 30% of students who have access to college. To ensure that enough disadvantaged minorities would have access to free college, the U.S. would need the large majority of high school graduates to go to free college. That would make the program much more expensive than in Germany. Applying the German system to the U.S. unchanged would not only be politically impossible, but would be hugely regressive. It would be a massive taxpayer-funded program that would benefit primarily students that are advantaged to begin with. For the $75-billion estimated cost of free college, we could write a $5,000 check for each and every child under the poverty line, every year. That seems a lot better use of money than ensuring that a bunch of primary middle/upper middle class kids get free college.

Broken_Hippo 8y ago
I think you might have misunderstood: About 30% of people are able to do the work, but it isn't limiting free college to 30% of the population. Instead, it is about 30% of the population that applies themselves to take advantage of it. If it comes up that 50% of the population qualifies for the education and follows through with it, the number would change to 50%. For many, all that is needed is to be upfront about what is required and make sure lower level schooling can provide what is needed. I'll add that you could take care of a lot of the rest of the things by having a strong support system. Only about 30% of americans have college degrees as it is. Not as much would change. If you take some other countries examples as well and include things like trade schools and things that would be an associates degree elsewhere, your number would be much higher. These sorts of programs are tracked seperately.
chimeracoder 8y ago
> Limiting free college to 30% of the population would never work in the U.S. By 2025, more than half of high school graduates will be minorities, mostly socioeconomically disadvantaged minorities. Without getting into the "why," these groups score substantially lower on the metrics (test scores, sometimes straight-up IQ tests) that Germany uses to select the 30% of students who have access to college. To ensure that enough disadvantaged minorities would have access to free college, the U.S. would need the large majority of high school graduates to go to free college. That would make the program much more expensive than in Germany. It's a shame you're being downvoted, because you're right. To put it another way: the reason Germany, France, Spain, etc. are able to provide free education is twofold: 1) They provide education to a much smaller portion of the population than the US does (~25% in Germany compared to >45% the US). 2) They're content with having a system which reinforces racial inequalities from a very young age. The US education system, for all its faults, is actually quite good at providing opportunities for minorities in higher education, and the rates of degrees awarded bear this out. It's unpopular to point this out, but that's something that the German/French/etc. models don't do at all. Yes, the opportunities are available to people from any racial background in theory, but in practice, they mask significant racial disparities under the guise of being "colorblind".

mcguire 8y ago

"Germany proves tuition-free college is not a silver bullet for America’s education woes": (https://qz.com/812200/is-free-college-possible-germany-shows-there-are-downsides-to-tuition-free-college/ https://qz.com/812200/is-free-college-possible-germany-shows...) "German university enrollment rose by 22% as tuition disappeared...—while the number of Germans who opt instead for vocational education has declined. On the other hand, the cost to taxpayers of subsidizing higher education went up 37%. [Later:] ...The shift to dependence on government funding, combined with the increase in enrollment, has also meant a 10% decline in spending per student in the last few years, the OECD reports. Today, German public schools spend about $16,895 per student, compared with $27,924 per student in the United States." "In Germany, low-income students can apply for grants and loans totaling around €650 a month ($580) to pay for living expenses. Since almost all students live off campus, this creates an unanticipated outcome: Even in a country where universities don’t charge tuition, students are still graduating with debt....68% of German students work,... and “students from a lower socioeconomic background try to study faster.” Students are also more likely to choose practical subjects like marketing or human resources. Meanwhile medicine and law degrees, which take longer and therefore cost more, remain careers mostly for the wealthy." "Three-quarters of German’s adult college graduates have children who also earn university degrees, Woessmann said, compared to a 25% of adults who don’t have degrees. (In all, 57% of the equivalent of high school graduates go on to college here, the OECD reports, compared to what the Bureau of Labor Statistics says is 69% of their American counterparts.)" Then, there's "In Norway, where college is free, children of uneducated parents still don’t go", (https://hechingerreport.org/in-norway-where-college-is-free-children-of-uneducated-parents-still-dont-go/ https://hechingerreport.org/in-norway-where-college-is-free-...).