4 ms·

There are certainly downsides to those programs that progressives in the US would hate, though. For example, in Germany, part of why it works is that they have

There are certainly downsides to those programs that progressives in the US would hate, though. For example, in Germany, part of why it works is that they have a fairly strict "tracked" system post-elementary school that's kind of classist, that makes gaining admittance harder. Plus they don't really 'support' students in terms of counseling or special programs or anything the way US universities do; it's expected that you're an adult, and if you can't hack it, you're out. In practice, lack of support means students who come from more affluent, educated backgrounds have a large advantage over first-generation college students.

fifnir 8y ago
> In practice, lack of support means students who come from more affluent, educated backgrounds have a large advantage over first-generation college students. I'm pretty sure poor students would prefer no support and no debt over a bit of support for huge debt.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  Some would. But if you come out of it with no degree because of a lack of support, "at least it was free for you to get nothing" may be cold comfort.
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    Well, it's still better than having gone into debt to not get a degree. The support is only worth the money if it was the difference between you making it and not making it. That will be true for some people. Others won't make it even with the support. For them, "support but expensive" is worse than "no support but free".
- Arnt 8y ago
  They do incur debt. Or work part time, or both, because they have to live while studying. What's this support that German students don't get?
  - pintxo 8y ago
    There is a state support program for Students (starting at High school age if necessary, covering higher education and apprenticeship programs) whose parents combined income is below the threshold. It‘s called Bafög (if I recall correctly that’s for Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz, Federal Apprenticeship/Study Subsidary Law) Depending on financial background it‘s partly paid as loan / gift. With low interest and payment schedules linked to the actual income after exiting the program.
    - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
      Norway has a similar program. Students have a stipend that doesn't need repaid: It is just enough to live a very frugal life (and in some cases, not quite enough). I'm pretty sure repayment is dependent on what you earn afterwards. And as a bonus, if someone is willing to live and work up north for some years (5 or 10, I can't remember), you won't have to repay the loans.
- stordoff 8y ago
  Without support, I could not have gone to university, and the debt is taken as a tiny fraction of my salary (currently 0, as I don't earn enough). I absolutely would not have preferred no support and no debt.
tomaha 8y ago
It's an advantage to have wealthy and/or educated parents no matter what kind of system you have. But in Germany your chances are much better than in the US. No one in my family went to university before me and I had disadvantages because of that. But you still have excellent opportunities and just lack the advise of experienced parents/friends and perhaps are more risk-averse (but with Bafög you'll get some help there (monetary support if your parents don't earn enough)).
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  Yeah, I'm not saying it's a worse system. I'm just pointing out that in practice, there are compromises.
- mcguire 8y ago
  Interestingly, Germany has a lower-than-average drop-out rate (https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/eag_highlights-2008-9-en.pdf?expires=1536870550&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=0A29B0ED9F728FCBAE361C9F657342D9 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/eag_highlights-2008-...). On the other hand, US and European higher education are not directly comparable. (https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/articles/2017-08-11/how-bachelors-degree-programs-in-the-us-and-europe-differ https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/ar..., https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/articles/2016-06-20/6-things-to-know-about-earning-an-undergraduate-degree-in-germany https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/ar...)

fifnir 8y ago

> In practice, lack of support means students who come from more affluent, educated backgrounds have a large advantage over first-generation college students. I'm pretty sure poor students would prefer no support and no debt over a bit of support for huge debt.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
Some would. But if you come out of it with no degree because of a lack of support, "at least it was free for you to get nothing" may be cold comfort.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  Well, it's still better than having gone into debt to not get a degree. The support is only worth the money if it was the difference between you making it and not making it. That will be true for some people. Others won't make it even with the support. For them, "support but expensive" is worse than "no support but free".
Arnt 8y ago
They do incur debt. Or work part time, or both, because they have to live while studying. What's this support that German students don't get?
- pintxo 8y ago
  There is a state support program for Students (starting at High school age if necessary, covering higher education and apprenticeship programs) whose parents combined income is below the threshold. It‘s called Bafög (if I recall correctly that’s for Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz, Federal Apprenticeship/Study Subsidary Law) Depending on financial background it‘s partly paid as loan / gift. With low interest and payment schedules linked to the actual income after exiting the program.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    Norway has a similar program. Students have a stipend that doesn't need repaid: It is just enough to live a very frugal life (and in some cases, not quite enough). I'm pretty sure repayment is dependent on what you earn afterwards. And as a bonus, if someone is willing to live and work up north for some years (5 or 10, I can't remember), you won't have to repay the loans.
stordoff 8y ago
Without support, I could not have gone to university, and the debt is taken as a tiny fraction of my salary (currently 0, as I don't earn enough). I absolutely would not have preferred no support and no debt.

tomaha 8y ago

It's an advantage to have wealthy and/or educated parents no matter what kind of system you have. But in Germany your chances are much better than in the US. No one in my family went to university before me and I had disadvantages because of that. But you still have excellent opportunities and just lack the advise of experienced parents/friends and perhaps are more risk-averse (but with Bafög you'll get some help there (monetary support if your parents don't earn enough)).

TulliusCicero 8y ago
Yeah, I'm not saying it's a worse system. I'm just pointing out that in practice, there are compromises.
mcguire 8y ago
Interestingly, Germany has a lower-than-average drop-out rate (https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/eag_highlights-2008-9-en.pdf?expires=1536870550&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=0A29B0ED9F728FCBAE361C9F657342D9 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/eag_highlights-2008-...). On the other hand, US and European higher education are not directly comparable. (https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/articles/2017-08-11/how-bachelors-degree-programs-in-the-us-and-europe-differ https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/ar..., https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/articles/2016-06-20/6-things-to-know-about-earning-an-undergraduate-degree-in-germany https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/ar...)