6 ms·

i personally started to find dynamically/optionally typed languages troublesome to read -- i have to do type deduction in my head, which just feel burdensome.

i personally started to find dynamically/optionally typed languages troublesome to read -- i have to do type deduction in my head, which just feel burdensome. as simple and easy as python feels without static typing, a handful of files of python is my tolerance level before i start to hate it

jacquesm 8y ago
Yep. A lack of typing puts an upper bound on the complexity of the code that effectively limits the line-count and relegates the language to 'glue' status. The reason is simple: typing functions as guard rails and guard rails are what keep you safe on the road when you are driving for 1000's of km. They have no function if you just putter about town at low speed. High line count projects almost always gravitate towards languages with such safeguards built in because otherwise the accumulation of subtle errors leads to too many runtime issues, and typing takes care of whole classes of bugs. IMO any mechanism that shifts that time of bug catching to development rather than operations should be preferred, ditto for any mechanism that forces a program to end when an undefined situation is detected, the closer to the root cause the better.
- wting 8y ago
  >A lack of typing puts an upper bound on the complexity of the code that effectively limits the line-count and relegates the language to 'glue' status. I disagree. I work(ed) at two of the more famous Python shops: Yelp and Reddit. These companies have many millions lines of Python code combined. Also FB was mostly a PHP shop until they started Hack in 2014, 2 years after they IPO'ed. Testing and monitoring can be used to combat type errors. Runtime type errors still happen occasionally, but honestly these are some of the easiest bugs to squash. I think you might be conflating static typing with strong typing when you infer that Python has "lack of typing." Python has a dynamic, but strong type system. I've coded professionally in many other languages (C, Java, Rust). I think C and Java have the worst ROI when it comes to type systems. In my opinion if you're going to use a type system on a new project today, then use something that provides stronger guarantees like Rust or TypeScript (and lowers the burden by inferring or deducting many types). Python isn't perfect, but it's still the first tool I reach for anything web, ops or data science related.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    And bricks will fly if you add enough engine to them. It's all a matter of resources and what is the optimal path. That FB was a success even though it was built in PHP is not a testimony for PHP, it is a testimony for the engineers at Facebook who were able to pull that off despite PHPs obvious shortcomings. The fact that they built their own in-house compiler for the language speaks volumes in this respect. Yelp and Reddit also have above average resources to throw at the problems they try to solve. Python is the first tool of choice for quick solutions to immediate problems for me as well, but that does not make me blind to its obvious shortcomings.
    - justinhj 8y ago
      You’re completely discounting that PHP has qualities that may have helped early Facebook grow. In fact one the engineers did a talk about exactly that.
      - jacquesm 8y ago
        The language that you start in may not be the most appropriate tool in the longer term. Facebook grew so fast they did not have enough air to switch, hence their incredible investment in making PHP better. Look, I've built I don't know how many websites in PHP, and my company still earns a lot of money with a tool I threw together in a day or two in it so I have nothing but admiration for what it can do. But you'll be the last person to hear me argue that there aren't better tools for the majority of the jobs at hand. We are all looking forward to the day that it can be retired, but in the meantime we will definitely keep using it and we will continue to pray to the PHP gods. It is a very productive little language that has a ton of warts and some serious issues, but it does have a niche and it is useful.
        justinhj 8y ago
        That's a fair point, I'm sure there are ways to build things that have the benefits of PHP today that may not have been as abundant back when Facebook was starting out.
- ArchTypical 8y ago
  > A lack of typing puts an upper bound on the complexity of the code that effectively limits the line-count and relegates the language to 'glue' status. That's an opinion, not a fact. > IMO any mechanism that shifts that time of bug catching to development rather than operations should be preferred That's probably true of an existing product, but that's not the only concern in product development.
flyinglizard 8y ago
Likewise. I come from a mostly C background (embedded), but now Python is especially popular in my close circles. I liked it at first, but over the past five years I grew to despise it for anything more than a single file, 300 loc program. In stark contrast, I’ve been playing around with Unity/C#/Visual Studio and my productivity with this tool stack is through the roof. There, it is rare that I create code which doesn’t fill its intended purpose the first time around. It’s all so easy, and InteliSense makes the quite verbose typing not felt. The tooling and safety is magnificent.
aylmao 8y ago
Types are documentation that the compiler (or interpreter) forces you to write and keep consistent, and that your editor can easily understand (:

jacquesm 8y ago

Yep. A lack of typing puts an upper bound on the complexity of the code that effectively limits the line-count and relegates the language to 'glue' status. The reason is simple: typing functions as guard rails and guard rails are what keep you safe on the road when you are driving for 1000's of km. They have no function if you just putter about town at low speed. High line count projects almost always gravitate towards languages with such safeguards built in because otherwise the accumulation of subtle errors leads to too many runtime issues, and typing takes care of whole classes of bugs. IMO any mechanism that shifts that time of bug catching to development rather than operations should be preferred, ditto for any mechanism that forces a program to end when an undefined situation is detected, the closer to the root cause the better.

wting 8y ago
>A lack of typing puts an upper bound on the complexity of the code that effectively limits the line-count and relegates the language to 'glue' status. I disagree. I work(ed) at two of the more famous Python shops: Yelp and Reddit. These companies have many millions lines of Python code combined. Also FB was mostly a PHP shop until they started Hack in 2014, 2 years after they IPO'ed. Testing and monitoring can be used to combat type errors. Runtime type errors still happen occasionally, but honestly these are some of the easiest bugs to squash. I think you might be conflating static typing with strong typing when you infer that Python has "lack of typing." Python has a dynamic, but strong type system. I've coded professionally in many other languages (C, Java, Rust). I think C and Java have the worst ROI when it comes to type systems. In my opinion if you're going to use a type system on a new project today, then use something that provides stronger guarantees like Rust or TypeScript (and lowers the burden by inferring or deducting many types). Python isn't perfect, but it's still the first tool I reach for anything web, ops or data science related.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  And bricks will fly if you add enough engine to them. It's all a matter of resources and what is the optimal path. That FB was a success even though it was built in PHP is not a testimony for PHP, it is a testimony for the engineers at Facebook who were able to pull that off despite PHPs obvious shortcomings. The fact that they built their own in-house compiler for the language speaks volumes in this respect. Yelp and Reddit also have above average resources to throw at the problems they try to solve. Python is the first tool of choice for quick solutions to immediate problems for me as well, but that does not make me blind to its obvious shortcomings.
  - justinhj 8y ago
    You’re completely discounting that PHP has qualities that may have helped early Facebook grow. In fact one the engineers did a talk about exactly that.
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      The language that you start in may not be the most appropriate tool in the longer term. Facebook grew so fast they did not have enough air to switch, hence their incredible investment in making PHP better. Look, I've built I don't know how many websites in PHP, and my company still earns a lot of money with a tool I threw together in a day or two in it so I have nothing but admiration for what it can do. But you'll be the last person to hear me argue that there aren't better tools for the majority of the jobs at hand. We are all looking forward to the day that it can be retired, but in the meantime we will definitely keep using it and we will continue to pray to the PHP gods. It is a very productive little language that has a ton of warts and some serious issues, but it does have a niche and it is useful.
      - justinhj 8y ago
        That's a fair point, I'm sure there are ways to build things that have the benefits of PHP today that may not have been as abundant back when Facebook was starting out.
ArchTypical 8y ago
> A lack of typing puts an upper bound on the complexity of the code that effectively limits the line-count and relegates the language to 'glue' status. That's an opinion, not a fact. > IMO any mechanism that shifts that time of bug catching to development rather than operations should be preferred That's probably true of an existing product, but that's not the only concern in product development.

flyinglizard 8y ago

Likewise. I come from a mostly C background (embedded), but now Python is especially popular in my close circles. I liked it at first, but over the past five years I grew to despise it for anything more than a single file, 300 loc program. In stark contrast, I’ve been playing around with Unity/C#/Visual Studio and my productivity with this tool stack is through the roof. There, it is rare that I create code which doesn’t fill its intended purpose the first time around. It’s all so easy, and InteliSense makes the quite verbose typing not felt. The tooling and safety is magnificent.

aylmao 8y ago

Types are documentation that the compiler (or interpreter) forces you to write and keep consistent, and that your editor can easily understand (: