4 ms·

Twice it was mentioned that the cause of WWII was boredom. Is this actually a real theory?

jjtheblunt 8y ago
No, it's hubris by arrogant fools.
rdtsc 8y ago
I found that interesting as well. He seemed to be the most informed and data driven. "Data shows that no, we are not as divided, but that these voters are bored and have routine jobs..." First result I found was this article: https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/health/boredom-extreme-politics/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/health/boredom-extreme-politi... Which references a few studies: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ejsp.2205 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ejsp.2205 Though can only see the abstract. It shows that boredom leads to extremism both left and right wing as extremism provides meaning. I can see that to some extent. Article is the just the abstract, need a login and possibly to pay money to read the full text. Another one: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images/07/13/consevatismasmotivatedsocialcognition_critique.pdf http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images/07/13/consevatismas...
paganel 8y ago
> Is this actually a real theory? I'm not a professional historian by any means, but I think Ernst Nolte's opinion (he was a German historian) that WW2 was actually an European Civil War fought between fascism and communism is right (you can read an introduction into the whole discussion on his wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Nolte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Nolte). His basic idea was summed up by another historian, Norman Davies (you can ignore the "leftists" part at the end): > Ten years later, in The European Civil War (1987), the German historian Ernst Nolte (b. 1923) brought ideology into the equation. The First World War had spawned the Bolshevik Revolution, he maintained, and fascism should be seen as a "counter-revolution" against communism. More pointedly, since fascism followed communism chronologically, he argued that some of the Nazis' political techniques and practices had been copied from those of the Soviet Union. Needless to say, such propositions were thought anathema by leftists who believe that fascism was an original and unparalleled evil. People in the States and generally speaking in Western Europe tend to forget how much communism (Bolshevism as it was called back then) was seen as a threat after WW1. I happened to view a video on YT a couple of days ago of German Radio's official announcement of Hitler's death. I don't know German but the only word that I could distinctively comprehend was "Bolshevism" (or whatever its spelling is in German), which shows that even with Hitler dead and defeat just a few of days away the Germans were still thinking about the big bad man coming from the East (as far as I could heard no mention was made in the same announcement about the "Amerikaner").
- piokoch 8y ago
  "People in the States and generally speaking in Western Europe tend to forget how much communism (Bolshevism as it was called back then) was seen as a threat after WW1." Because it really was, Europe was pretty lucky that Soviet army was defeated in 1920 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_(1920) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_(1920)] before it managed to go further to the West - that was the ultimate communists goal, as they wanted to spread revolution across whole continent. In that way not only Eastern and Central Europe countries would experience the fun communism brings: poverty, inequality, secret police murdering opposition members and priests, lack of freedom.
  - ionised 8y ago
    > In that way not only Eastern and Central Europe countries would experience the fun communism brings: poverty, inequality, secret police murdering opposition members and priests, lack of freedom. You say that like fascism didn't exhibit these characteristics as well.
- cjcole 8y ago
  "the Germans were still thinking about the big bad man coming from the East" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_Soviet_occupation_of_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_Soviet_occupat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_... 'The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million.[7][8][9][10] According to historian William Hitchcock, in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[11] At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[9] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[12] Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[1][13] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", and has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone.[14] According to Natalya Gesse, Soviet soldiers raped German females from eight to eighty years old. Soviet and Polish women were not spared either.[15][16][17] When General Tsygankov, head of the political department of the First Ukrainian Front, reported to Moscow the mass rape of Soviet women deported to East Germany for forced labour, he recommended that the Soviet women be prevented from describing their ordeal on their return to Russia.[18]' "as far as I could heard no mention was made in the same announcement about the "Amerikaner" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes
tvh 8y ago
I'm not aware of it being a theory, but I strongly recommend this read for anyone who entertains this "boredom" root cause idea, which seems bonkers. Also, regardless of that, it's a massively interesting read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Destruction
rphlx 8y ago
At best a crackpot one with no serious support from contemporary leaders such as Churchill, or historians since then AFAIK. Putting the war in the Pacific aside, I think you can place much of the blame for WWII on the election of an extremist in Germany, and that had little to do with any alleged "boredom" in the electorate. A fairly decent case may be made for "anger", "disillusion", "jealousy" and "resentment" though, and I suppose you could make a case for those also being important factors in the 2016 US election.

No, it's hubris by arrogant fools.

I found that interesting as well. He seemed to be the most informed and data driven. "Data shows that no, we are not as divided, but that these voters are bored and have routine jobs..." First result I found was this article: https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/health/boredom-extreme-politics/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/health/boredom-extreme-politi... Which references a few studies: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ejsp.2205 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ejsp.2205 Though can only see the abstract. It shows that boredom leads to extremism both left and right wing as extremism provides meaning. I can see that to some extent. Article is the just the abstract, need a login and possibly to pay money to read the full text. Another one: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images/07/13/consevatismasmotivatedsocialcognition_critique.pdf http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images/07/13/consevatismas...

paganel 8y ago

> Is this actually a real theory? I'm not a professional historian by any means, but I think Ernst Nolte's opinion (he was a German historian) that WW2 was actually an European Civil War fought between fascism and communism is right (you can read an introduction into the whole discussion on his wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Nolte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Nolte). His basic idea was summed up by another historian, Norman Davies (you can ignore the "leftists" part at the end): > Ten years later, in The European Civil War (1987), the German historian Ernst Nolte (b. 1923) brought ideology into the equation. The First World War had spawned the Bolshevik Revolution, he maintained, and fascism should be seen as a "counter-revolution" against communism. More pointedly, since fascism followed communism chronologically, he argued that some of the Nazis' political techniques and practices had been copied from those of the Soviet Union. Needless to say, such propositions were thought anathema by leftists who believe that fascism was an original and unparalleled evil. People in the States and generally speaking in Western Europe tend to forget how much communism (Bolshevism as it was called back then) was seen as a threat after WW1. I happened to view a video on YT a couple of days ago of German Radio's official announcement of Hitler's death. I don't know German but the only word that I could distinctively comprehend was "Bolshevism" (or whatever its spelling is in German), which shows that even with Hitler dead and defeat just a few of days away the Germans were still thinking about the big bad man coming from the East (as far as I could heard no mention was made in the same announcement about the "Amerikaner").

piokoch 8y ago
"People in the States and generally speaking in Western Europe tend to forget how much communism (Bolshevism as it was called back then) was seen as a threat after WW1." Because it really was, Europe was pretty lucky that Soviet army was defeated in 1920 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_(1920) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_(1920)] before it managed to go further to the West - that was the ultimate communists goal, as they wanted to spread revolution across whole continent. In that way not only Eastern and Central Europe countries would experience the fun communism brings: poverty, inequality, secret police murdering opposition members and priests, lack of freedom.
- ionised 8y ago
  > In that way not only Eastern and Central Europe countries would experience the fun communism brings: poverty, inequality, secret police murdering opposition members and priests, lack of freedom. You say that like fascism didn't exhibit these characteristics as well.
cjcole 8y ago
"the Germans were still thinking about the big bad man coming from the East" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_Soviet_occupation_of_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_Soviet_occupat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_... 'The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million.[7][8][9][10] According to historian William Hitchcock, in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[11] At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[9] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[12] Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[1][13] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", and has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone.[14] According to Natalya Gesse, Soviet soldiers raped German females from eight to eighty years old. Soviet and Polish women were not spared either.[15][16][17] When General Tsygankov, head of the political department of the First Ukrainian Front, reported to Moscow the mass rape of Soviet women deported to East Germany for forced labour, he recommended that the Soviet women be prevented from describing their ordeal on their return to Russia.[18]' "as far as I could heard no mention was made in the same announcement about the "Amerikaner" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

tvh 8y ago

I'm not aware of it being a theory, but I strongly recommend this read for anyone who entertains this "boredom" root cause idea, which seems bonkers. Also, regardless of that, it's a massively interesting read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Destruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Destruction

rphlx 8y ago

At best a crackpot one with no serious support from contemporary leaders such as Churchill, or historians since then AFAIK. Putting the war in the Pacific aside, I think you can place much of the blame for WWII on the election of an extremist in Germany, and that had little to do with any alleged "boredom" in the electorate. A fairly decent case may be made for "anger", "disillusion", "jealousy" and "resentment" though, and I suppose you could make a case for those also being important factors in the 2016 US election.