4 ms·

> I'm not sure about Steam, but there are plenty of horror stories on the internet about "bought X on Y platform and then Y revoked account". The worst part ab

> I'm not sure about Steam, but there are plenty of horror stories on the internet about "bought X on Y platform and then Y revoked account". The worst part about this is that it often happens when consumers exercise their legitimate rights to e.g. chargebacks. And yes, Steam does it too: if you chargeback a Steam purchase, even a fraudulent one where the CC company sides with you after the investigation, usually this will result in your account getting locked and held hostage until you undo the chargeback and eat the cost.

felix_nagaand 8y ago
That's when it's time to sue.
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  The Steam user agreement includes a binding arbitration clause preventing you from suing: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11 https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11. There is no escape.
  - olzd 8y ago
    Actually there is: be a EU resident. It's even explicitely stated there.
  - babypuncher 8y ago
    Have these actually been tested in court? I believe if someone actually decided to sue it would go about as poorly as non-compete clauses in employment contracts.
    - Analemma_ 8y ago
      Yes, SCOTUS has repeatedly upheld binding arbitration clauses as valid, and that they even override state law and apply in cases of naked fraud by the company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepcion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc... (binding arbitration overrides state law) https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/business/supreme-court-upholds-workplace-arbitration-contracts.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/business/supreme-court-up... (binding arbitration overrides workers' rights) https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-binding-arbitration-agreements/2012/01/16/gIQAg4LuGQ_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-... (binding aribtration applies even in cases of fraud and deceptive advertising)
      - caf 8y ago
        In a sense this is just codifying what has always been tacitly true - the court system isn't really intended to protect the common man against the economic, political and social elites, it's primary purpose is as a dispute resolution mechanism among those elites.
    - giobox 8y ago
      They teach arbitration and related matters in many law school curriculums now, another sad sign of the continued slide into privatised legal systems. Unfortunately they have been successfully tested often in many legal systems.
    - baddox 8y ago
      If you’re testing an arbitration clause outside of arbitration then it’s already clear that the arbitration clause wasn’t binding.
wongarsu 8y ago
When do I have a right to issue a chargeback against Valve? I enter a purchase contract that says that I pay them and they provide me access to a game (or some other item). If I believe they didn't uphold their part and I can't resolve it with customer service I can sue them. Nothing gives me the right to just break my part of the contract and take my money back.
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  > If I believe they didn't uphold their part and I can't resolve it with customer service I can sue them. Actually no you can't (at least if you're in the US), because the Steam user agreement mandates binding arbitration: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11 https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11, where, for all practical purposes, the consumer always loses. > Nothing gives me the right to just break my part of the contract and take my money back. The whole point of chargebacks is that they're supposed to give you that right, if the CC company decides that the vendor wronged you. Valve's behavior here is an unethical and unilateral end-run around this process.
  - gowld 8y ago
    How is it an "end-run"? Your CC chargeback agreement isn't sacrosanct or a law. It's just another private contract, on par with your contract with Steam. The real problem is that a Steam "purchase" are fundamentally an undefined-term rental. When you "buy" a gsame, you are buying nothing, and then Steam might let you access a game if they wants you to.
    - eecc 8y ago
      Welcome to the brave new world of Libertarian Utopia, where all your have is an endless rage over contracts and stipulations... /s
      - pdkl95 8y ago
        Libertarian Utopia dating[1] has too much paperwork, and the nightclub attorney's fees are gradually changing my cocktails into cheap watered down beer. Giving up on interacting with real humans and ordering a Cherry 2000[2] would be a lot easier - and a lot cheaper! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urS8GmwmeWQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urS8GmwmeWQ [2] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8qwvz5/how-cherry-2000-predicted-our-loveless-future https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8qwvz5/how-cherry...
rosege 8y ago
I dont know how easy is it to transfer games to another account - but if possible you could do that then initiate the chargeback
- rizzin 8y ago
  You can't transfer games between accounts on Steam
chrisseaton 8y ago
The customer is exercising their legitimate right to chargeback, and Valve is exercising their legitimate right to not do business with the customer after that.
- moreira 8y ago
  The problem is not that Valve is exercising the right not to do business with them, but that they're taking away everything they ever bought from them. It's akin to me wronging Amazon and they come to my house and pick up everything they ever shipped me, and take it all back.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

felix_nagaand 8y ago

That's when it's time to sue.

Analemma_ 8y ago
The Steam user agreement includes a binding arbitration clause preventing you from suing: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11 https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11. There is no escape.
- olzd 8y ago
  Actually there is: be a EU resident. It's even explicitely stated there.
- babypuncher 8y ago
  Have these actually been tested in court? I believe if someone actually decided to sue it would go about as poorly as non-compete clauses in employment contracts.
  - Analemma_ 8y ago
    Yes, SCOTUS has repeatedly upheld binding arbitration clauses as valid, and that they even override state law and apply in cases of naked fraud by the company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepcion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc... (binding arbitration overrides state law) https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/business/supreme-court-upholds-workplace-arbitration-contracts.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/business/supreme-court-up... (binding arbitration overrides workers' rights) https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-binding-arbitration-agreements/2012/01/16/gIQAg4LuGQ_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-... (binding aribtration applies even in cases of fraud and deceptive advertising)
    - caf 8y ago
      In a sense this is just codifying what has always been tacitly true - the court system isn't really intended to protect the common man against the economic, political and social elites, it's primary purpose is as a dispute resolution mechanism among those elites.
  - giobox 8y ago
    They teach arbitration and related matters in many law school curriculums now, another sad sign of the continued slide into privatised legal systems. Unfortunately they have been successfully tested often in many legal systems.
  - baddox 8y ago
    If you’re testing an arbitration clause outside of arbitration then it’s already clear that the arbitration clause wasn’t binding.

wongarsu 8y ago

When do I have a right to issue a chargeback against Valve? I enter a purchase contract that says that I pay them and they provide me access to a game (or some other item). If I believe they didn't uphold their part and I can't resolve it with customer service I can sue them. Nothing gives me the right to just break my part of the contract and take my money back.

Analemma_ 8y ago
> If I believe they didn't uphold their part and I can't resolve it with customer service I can sue them. Actually no you can't (at least if you're in the US), because the Steam user agreement mandates binding arbitration: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11 https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11, where, for all practical purposes, the consumer always loses. > Nothing gives me the right to just break my part of the contract and take my money back. The whole point of chargebacks is that they're supposed to give you that right, if the CC company decides that the vendor wronged you. Valve's behavior here is an unethical and unilateral end-run around this process.
- gowld 8y ago
  How is it an "end-run"? Your CC chargeback agreement isn't sacrosanct or a law. It's just another private contract, on par with your contract with Steam. The real problem is that a Steam "purchase" are fundamentally an undefined-term rental. When you "buy" a gsame, you are buying nothing, and then Steam might let you access a game if they wants you to.
  - eecc 8y ago
    Welcome to the brave new world of Libertarian Utopia, where all your have is an endless rage over contracts and stipulations... /s
    - pdkl95 8y ago
      Libertarian Utopia dating[1] has too much paperwork, and the nightclub attorney's fees are gradually changing my cocktails into cheap watered down beer. Giving up on interacting with real humans and ordering a Cherry 2000[2] would be a lot easier - and a lot cheaper! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urS8GmwmeWQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urS8GmwmeWQ [2] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8qwvz5/how-cherry-2000-predicted-our-loveless-future https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8qwvz5/how-cherry...

rosege 8y ago

I dont know how easy is it to transfer games to another account - but if possible you could do that then initiate the chargeback

rizzin 8y ago
You can't transfer games between accounts on Steam

chrisseaton 8y ago

The customer is exercising their legitimate right to chargeback, and Valve is exercising their legitimate right to not do business with the customer after that.

moreira 8y ago
The problem is not that Valve is exercising the right not to do business with them, but that they're taking away everything they ever bought from them. It's akin to me wronging Amazon and they come to my house and pick up everything they ever shipped me, and take it all back.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]