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It was interesting to hear apple state that one of their goals for building products was to make them last longer in order to minimize waste. People often accus

It was interesting to hear apple state that one of their goals for building products was to make them last longer in order to minimize waste. People often accuse hardware manufacturers, including apple, of intentional obsolescence. I am interested to see if they actually change anything about their process, software and hardware, to put any weight behind this claim, or if it is just marketing doublespeak.

lwansbrough 8y ago
> including apple ESPECIALLY Apple. They developed a subscription model for hardware.
- ratsimihah 8y ago
  I don't care if my device is 5 years old, they've often been. As long as they're not too slow to use.
- raydev 8y ago
  You say this as their oldest supported phone is entering 5 years since release. Instead of accusing them of designing for planned obsolescence, maybe consider the gigantic performance gains between each model for the first 5 years.
  - lwansbrough 8y ago
    Let’s not pretend like yearly release cycles are still necessary. And 5 years is only commendable on mobile, but is becoming less so as many of the software changes that impact performance are superfluous “improvements” like Animoji and live backgrounds. Imagine if Windows only supported up to 5 year old hardware.
AndrewStephens 8y ago
Apple are already pretty good in this regard - their devices are expensive but made to last, and they directly support them for 4 or 5 years. The upcoming iOS release is supposed to be focused on getting better performance on old devices as well.
- masklinn 8y ago
  > they directly support them for 4 or 5 years The 5S is entering its 6th year and will get iOS 12.
- Narkov 8y ago
  > their devices are expensive but made to last, and they directly support them for 4 or 5 years Do you think a $1,000+ phone lasting only "4 or 5 years" is really that good?
  - theoctopus 8y ago
    For a device which is heavily used every single day, yes.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Do you think a $1,000+ phone lasting only "4 or 5 years" is really that good? You don't have to buy a $1,000 iPhone to get 4-5 years out of it. You can buy a cheaper model and get the same longevity. Or you can buy random_chinese_android phone, pay the same $1,000, and get software updates cut off in two years.
  - dv_dt 8y ago
    I think it's significantly better than most non-Apple phones. But I think too that the there is significant invisible engineering required to make the device well recyclable after whatever the lifetime period is, and that's harder to judge. The only visible aspect of that is perhaps Apples acceptance of older units in trade, but it's indefinite, as one would really need a third-party assessment to know how well that was doing.
  - avianlyric 8y ago
    There’s a big difference between how long a device is directly supported for, and how long it lasts. Additionally many people would consider a laptop being directly supported for 5 years pretty good.
    - thisacctforreal 8y ago
catdog 8y ago
Even if they do it probably does not matter much. They are able to convince most of their customers to buy new every 1-2 years so marketing will simply state: "Well we did what we could but people want the newest shit, not our fault".
- georgemcbay 8y ago
  As long as the old devices remain functional and available and properly utilized as hand-me-downs or resold into the market used, then having some subset of the market wanting to be on the "newest shit" isn't necessarily at odds with being environmentally friendly. If a device is built to last and that means it spends 1 year in the hands of an early adopter and then 5+ years in the hands of someone more price conscious, then that's still better than being disposable. I do question whether Apple is serious about this aspect though if for no other reason than how hostile they are to the non-Apple-first-party device repair market for their devices.
  - masklinn 8y ago
    > I do question whether Apple is serious about this aspect though if for no other reason than how hostile they are to the non-Apple-first-party device repair market for their devices. Well they're at least serious about supporting devices for a long time: even if it's dropped from iOS 13, the 5S will have been supported for 6 years. Although the devices getting less and less repairable is a significant issue.
daddyofive 8y ago
Apple is probably accused most of doing this through software. I would be surprised to see Apple keep old devices fast and secure.
- masklinn 8y ago
  The 5S is getting iOS12, and according to people running the beta it runs better on iOS12 than 11. The phone was released in September 2013. How many Android devices from 2013 are getting Pie, and running well under it? I'm guessing it's about "none whatsoever": Google can't be arsed to support its own device for more than 3 years (the 2 years old Pixel is the oldest Google-branded device getting Pie), and other manufacturers are way worse.
  - lathiat 8y ago
    I’d start with how many android devices from 2017 and go from there.
  - overeater 8y ago
    This is cherry picking the most long-lasting supported iPhone and comparing it against the least supported Android phone. Google has guaranteed a minimum of 3 years support now. Plenty of iPhones had only 3 years of support, and same with Android phones. At least do an apples to apples comparison (pun intended).
    - Jtsummers 8y ago
      > Plenty of iPhones had only 3 years of support, and same with Android phones. At least do an apples to apples comparison (pun intended). That's a bold claim. Only two models were end-of-lifed after less than 3 years. One more after less than 4 (3y, 11m). The rest had at least 4 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone According to this, from the 3GS to the 5C, most had 4 years (or very close) of support. Two models approached 5 years (4y, 10m and 4y, 11m). Everything from the 5S forward is still supported, and the 5S has 4 years and 11 months of support now. If you failed math, you might include the iPhone X in your numbers and its 10 months of support would bring the average down. However, that's 10 months of support so far, it's not end-of-lifed yet. The 5C is an outlier amongst the earlier models, but it makes sense. It was the same hardware as 5 but a different case, and released a year later. So the 1 less year of support is reasonable (if it were supported another year, the 5 would have been as well). For grins: The first 7 iPhone models had an average support period of 47 months. If you include the next 7 models (all still supported) it brings the average down to just shy of 39 months. If you consider that each of those 7 will get another 12 months of support from today, minimum: This time next year (excluding this year's models) they will have received almost 45 months of support, on average.
simonh 8y ago
I know it’s a few years ago now, but when my youngest started secondary school in 2016 I gave her my old iPhone 3GS which I’d found in a drawer. It worked fine, just about held a charge ok for a day of light use, and to my amazement even 7 years later the App Store still worked. I was able to download a few apps I’d bought back then that haven’t been updated or visible to me in the AppStore in years. I got her a new phone for Christmas, but it was great to see my old friend being so useful and loved for a few months after all that time.
TwoNineA 8y ago
My wife's iPhone 6 (4 year old phone) is still snappy and will get iOS 12 in a few weeks. My Pixel XL (2 year old phone), to be fair, it's snappy but it's EOL in OS updates this fall. All while the iPhone 6 will most possibly get iOS 13. Maybe I am a sucker for Apple keynotes, but this emphasis on long term use makes me seriously consider to upgrade my XL to an Xr especially seeing how the 5S will get iOS 12.
- make3 8y ago
  eol after 2 years? wtf google
  - masklinn 8y ago
    3 years technically: the 2 years old Pixel gets Pie, the 3 years old Nexus 5X and 6P do not.
  - xbmcuser 8y ago
    It's partly the hardware manufacturers /processor makers fault as they stop providing drivers for older devices۔ The latest Android verions though google has made it that the Android can be updated without needing driver updates for the different chips so I expect google to update devices for longer in the future۔
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Apple uses chips produced by third parties for its radio and until recently graphics(?) but it doesn’t have that problem.
      - xbmcuser 8y ago
        Apple makes it own drivers though for iOS so it's still possible for them to update where as the drivers for Android come from the manufacturers. That's the reason google has moved to break Android in parts so that they can update the os without needing new drivers from the manufacturers. Will probably still take 2-3 years before Android devices at least google sold Android devices are updated for longer other manufacturers probably still won't. Samsung comes to mind they produce most internals themselves but still don't update where as Nvidia has been updating its shield tv for 4+ years because they control hardware so its possible.
rad_gruchalski 8y ago
A remark on a mid-2009 mbp I have at home. Bought it in 2009 (thanks, Captian Obvious) for GBP2200. It came with 8GB RAM, which got upgraded to 16GB about a year later, that was about GBP70. I replaced the HDD with an SSD two years ago for EUR99. Finally, a new battery 2 weeks ago, EUR56. It is chucking along happily, if it wasn’t for lack of the retina screen, it would still be my main device. Wife uses it for work and I hear no complaints. I also have a 2nd gen ipad with new battery and I’m happy with it.
GeekyBear 8y ago
Given that the iPhone 5s is about to start getting it's sixth year of OS and security updates, and improved performance for older devices was the headline feature for this year's iOS update,I'd say that the assertion is already proven. Especially if you contrast with the "maybe you'll get two years of updates" experience provided by the majority of Android device vendors.
Svoka 8y ago
From my experience, "intentional obsolescence" is myth. I got my iPhones since iPhone 3Gs in perfect working condition. My mom used iPhone 4 until I gave her 6 last month. Oh, by the way, iOS12beta is working quite well on (almost) 5 year old iPhone 5S.

lwansbrough 8y ago

> including apple ESPECIALLY Apple. They developed a subscription model for hardware.

ratsimihah 8y ago
I don't care if my device is 5 years old, they've often been. As long as they're not too slow to use.
raydev 8y ago
You say this as their oldest supported phone is entering 5 years since release. Instead of accusing them of designing for planned obsolescence, maybe consider the gigantic performance gains between each model for the first 5 years.
- lwansbrough 8y ago
  Let’s not pretend like yearly release cycles are still necessary. And 5 years is only commendable on mobile, but is becoming less so as many of the software changes that impact performance are superfluous “improvements” like Animoji and live backgrounds. Imagine if Windows only supported up to 5 year old hardware.

AndrewStephens 8y ago

Apple are already pretty good in this regard - their devices are expensive but made to last, and they directly support them for 4 or 5 years. The upcoming iOS release is supposed to be focused on getting better performance on old devices as well.

masklinn 8y ago
> they directly support them for 4 or 5 years The 5S is entering its 6th year and will get iOS 12.
Narkov 8y ago
> their devices are expensive but made to last, and they directly support them for 4 or 5 years Do you think a $1,000+ phone lasting only "4 or 5 years" is really that good?
- theoctopus 8y ago
  For a device which is heavily used every single day, yes.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Do you think a $1,000+ phone lasting only "4 or 5 years" is really that good? You don't have to buy a $1,000 iPhone to get 4-5 years out of it. You can buy a cheaper model and get the same longevity. Or you can buy random_chinese_android phone, pay the same $1,000, and get software updates cut off in two years.
- dv_dt 8y ago
  I think it's significantly better than most non-Apple phones. But I think too that the there is significant invisible engineering required to make the device well recyclable after whatever the lifetime period is, and that's harder to judge. The only visible aspect of that is perhaps Apples acceptance of older units in trade, but it's indefinite, as one would really need a third-party assessment to know how well that was doing.
- avianlyric 8y ago
  There’s a big difference between how long a device is directly supported for, and how long it lasts. Additionally many people would consider a laptop being directly supported for 5 years pretty good.
  - thisacctforreal 8y ago

catdog 8y ago

Even if they do it probably does not matter much. They are able to convince most of their customers to buy new every 1-2 years so marketing will simply state: "Well we did what we could but people want the newest shit, not our fault".

georgemcbay 8y ago
As long as the old devices remain functional and available and properly utilized as hand-me-downs or resold into the market used, then having some subset of the market wanting to be on the "newest shit" isn't necessarily at odds with being environmentally friendly. If a device is built to last and that means it spends 1 year in the hands of an early adopter and then 5+ years in the hands of someone more price conscious, then that's still better than being disposable. I do question whether Apple is serious about this aspect though if for no other reason than how hostile they are to the non-Apple-first-party device repair market for their devices.
- masklinn 8y ago
  > I do question whether Apple is serious about this aspect though if for no other reason than how hostile they are to the non-Apple-first-party device repair market for their devices. Well they're at least serious about supporting devices for a long time: even if it's dropped from iOS 13, the 5S will have been supported for 6 years. Although the devices getting less and less repairable is a significant issue.

daddyofive 8y ago

Apple is probably accused most of doing this through software. I would be surprised to see Apple keep old devices fast and secure.

masklinn 8y ago
The 5S is getting iOS12, and according to people running the beta it runs better on iOS12 than 11. The phone was released in September 2013. How many Android devices from 2013 are getting Pie, and running well under it? I'm guessing it's about "none whatsoever": Google can't be arsed to support its own device for more than 3 years (the 2 years old Pixel is the oldest Google-branded device getting Pie), and other manufacturers are way worse.
- lathiat 8y ago
  I’d start with how many android devices from 2017 and go from there.
- overeater 8y ago
  This is cherry picking the most long-lasting supported iPhone and comparing it against the least supported Android phone. Google has guaranteed a minimum of 3 years support now. Plenty of iPhones had only 3 years of support, and same with Android phones. At least do an apples to apples comparison (pun intended).
  - Jtsummers 8y ago
    > Plenty of iPhones had only 3 years of support, and same with Android phones. At least do an apples to apples comparison (pun intended). That's a bold claim. Only two models were end-of-lifed after less than 3 years. One more after less than 4 (3y, 11m). The rest had at least 4 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone According to this, from the 3GS to the 5C, most had 4 years (or very close) of support. Two models approached 5 years (4y, 10m and 4y, 11m). Everything from the 5S forward is still supported, and the 5S has 4 years and 11 months of support now. If you failed math, you might include the iPhone X in your numbers and its 10 months of support would bring the average down. However, that's 10 months of support so far, it's not end-of-lifed yet. The 5C is an outlier amongst the earlier models, but it makes sense. It was the same hardware as 5 but a different case, and released a year later. So the 1 less year of support is reasonable (if it were supported another year, the 5 would have been as well). For grins: The first 7 iPhone models had an average support period of 47 months. If you include the next 7 models (all still supported) it brings the average down to just shy of 39 months. If you consider that each of those 7 will get another 12 months of support from today, minimum: This time next year (excluding this year's models) they will have received almost 45 months of support, on average.

simonh 8y ago

I know it’s a few years ago now, but when my youngest started secondary school in 2016 I gave her my old iPhone 3GS which I’d found in a drawer. It worked fine, just about held a charge ok for a day of light use, and to my amazement even 7 years later the App Store still worked. I was able to download a few apps I’d bought back then that haven’t been updated or visible to me in the AppStore in years. I got her a new phone for Christmas, but it was great to see my old friend being so useful and loved for a few months after all that time.

TwoNineA 8y ago

My wife's iPhone 6 (4 year old phone) is still snappy and will get iOS 12 in a few weeks. My Pixel XL (2 year old phone), to be fair, it's snappy but it's EOL in OS updates this fall. All while the iPhone 6 will most possibly get iOS 13. Maybe I am a sucker for Apple keynotes, but this emphasis on long term use makes me seriously consider to upgrade my XL to an Xr especially seeing how the 5S will get iOS 12.

make3 8y ago
eol after 2 years? wtf google
- masklinn 8y ago
  3 years technically: the 2 years old Pixel gets Pie, the 3 years old Nexus 5X and 6P do not.
- xbmcuser 8y ago
  It's partly the hardware manufacturers /processor makers fault as they stop providing drivers for older devices۔ The latest Android verions though google has made it that the Android can be updated without needing driver updates for the different chips so I expect google to update devices for longer in the future۔
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Apple uses chips produced by third parties for its radio and until recently graphics(?) but it doesn’t have that problem.
    - xbmcuser 8y ago
      Apple makes it own drivers though for iOS so it's still possible for them to update where as the drivers for Android come from the manufacturers. That's the reason google has moved to break Android in parts so that they can update the os without needing new drivers from the manufacturers. Will probably still take 2-3 years before Android devices at least google sold Android devices are updated for longer other manufacturers probably still won't. Samsung comes to mind they produce most internals themselves but still don't update where as Nvidia has been updating its shield tv for 4+ years because they control hardware so its possible.

rad_gruchalski 8y ago

A remark on a mid-2009 mbp I have at home. Bought it in 2009 (thanks, Captian Obvious) for GBP2200. It came with 8GB RAM, which got upgraded to 16GB about a year later, that was about GBP70. I replaced the HDD with an SSD two years ago for EUR99. Finally, a new battery 2 weeks ago, EUR56. It is chucking along happily, if it wasn’t for lack of the retina screen, it would still be my main device. Wife uses it for work and I hear no complaints. I also have a 2nd gen ipad with new battery and I’m happy with it.

GeekyBear 8y ago

Given that the iPhone 5s is about to start getting it's sixth year of OS and security updates, and improved performance for older devices was the headline feature for this year's iOS update,I'd say that the assertion is already proven. Especially if you contrast with the "maybe you'll get two years of updates" experience provided by the majority of Android device vendors.

Svoka 8y ago

From my experience, "intentional obsolescence" is myth. I got my iPhones since iPhone 3Gs in perfect working condition. My mom used iPhone 4 until I gave her 6 last month. Oh, by the way, iOS12beta is working quite well on (almost) 5 year old iPhone 5S.