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On that same note: I think we're seeing 2 problems: 1. People really don't want to get together due to the consequence of callout culture/(PCism/SJWism). This

by monksy 8y ago

On that same note: I think we're seeing 2 problems: 1. People really don't want to get together due to the consequence of callout culture/(PCism/SJWism). This has caused people (I'm seeing the effects with the communities I currently and have previously maintained) to be less likely to share, be willing to meet with people, and even branch out their friend circles. Censorship/Censorship has been the conservative "let's all get along" response. 2. Technology has become a detriment, I'm not sure when we're going to have our WWI for personal technology. (WWI introduced the concept that all of these improvements in technology may also bring death and destruction) Given the hooks of technology, we're going to get to a really nastic predicament here. I'm not sure how to describe what it will be, or how we can fix it. But we're losing valuable communication skills and we're making things worse for society. (That has been an ongoing thing for a while) My theory: We're going to go into a dark age. ---- Lastly: If you found this article somewhat helpful, I would suggest reading Captivate by Vanessa Williams/Edwards?

Hermitian909 8y ago
For some counter perspective to point 1, I'm a white male in the Bay Area whose interests often place me in diverse groups, some of whom advocate social justice policies. I haven't noticed SJW/PC culture as an actual barrier to socializing and no one I maintain contact with has ever mentioned it as a problem. Anecdotally, SJW/PC call-out culture appears to have a much more depressing effect on public discourse over the internet where posting opens you to criticism from anyone on the internet.
- monksy 8y ago
  Are those groups focused on sj polices? If they're groups where that's not the focus, and they've injected those policies. (I.e. let's say a HN user group) That's a problem. How comfortable would you feel stating a disagreement without even mentioning your identity or status? How comfortable would you be in stating the disagreement if you weren't 100% confident on what you were saying?
  - Hermitian909 8y ago
    For communities not focused on policies there's a certain amount of fragmentation along what I would call sj/pc social norms. In my boardgame group, for example, if you intentionally refer to someone using pronouns they do not like you get ejected; in which case you could leave our regular meeting place and walk 4 blocks down to another gathering where that sort of behavior is tolerated. As far as expressing disagreement goes, the rule is the same as it's always been as far as I can tell: The degree to which a view outside the local Overton Window is expressible is directly proportional to how much the listeners respect your politics/thought process/moral grounding and how far outside the Overton Window the view is. The more the listener respects your politics/thought process/moral grounding, the more radical the idea you can argue to them without being dismissed. Go too radical for someone who doesn't know you well and you lose the listener. So in direct response to your question, I'm very comfortable stating disagreement on topics that it's socially acceptable to disagree about generally and am comfortable disagreeing about anything with certain specific groups of people. This is, as far as I can tell, the most any society has ever achieved. A Bay Area neoreactionary will be shunned by most for expressing their belief that a woman's place is in the home just as a progressive in Birmingham, Alabama would be shunned for suggesting there's nothing wrong with abortion. I would go so far as to say that if this level of self-censorship is new to someone then they have been fortunate to spend much of their life in communities in which their views fit comfortably inside the local Overton Window; for everyone else this is normal.
    - monksy 8y ago
      Having the rule about pronouns is what I was referring to. Just having that rule makes people afraid of being rejected from the group from a slip up like that. (Thus creating censorship) Personally, I avoid groups that mandiate things like that or I'll aggressively reject that rule. (I'll let them know that it's a bad rule and I will speak up on it frequently.. will I intentionally treat the people who feel the need to have a different pronoun than what they're percieved badly.. no) However, I realize that I'm different and I don't tolerate bullies.
      - 8y ago
RickS 8y ago
re: 1 -- i've yet to see this ever happen to anyone I know. In fact, i've seen a handful of sketchy situations where it might even be warranted, and it still hasn't happened. The thing I see all the time, online and off? Comments like yours where people (mostly guys) self censor out of fear of this hypothetical life catastrophy. I think we dudes are hurting ourselves here. Far more than PC culture wants to harm us (which seems on the internet like a lot, but in reality, is effectively nil)

by monksy 8y ago

Hermitian909 8y ago

For some counter perspective to point 1, I'm a white male in the Bay Area whose interests often place me in diverse groups, some of whom advocate social justice policies. I haven't noticed SJW/PC culture as an actual barrier to socializing and no one I maintain contact with has ever mentioned it as a problem. Anecdotally, SJW/PC call-out culture appears to have a much more depressing effect on public discourse over the internet where posting opens you to criticism from anyone on the internet.

monksy 8y ago
Are those groups focused on sj polices? If they're groups where that's not the focus, and they've injected those policies. (I.e. let's say a HN user group) That's a problem. How comfortable would you feel stating a disagreement without even mentioning your identity or status? How comfortable would you be in stating the disagreement if you weren't 100% confident on what you were saying?
- Hermitian909 8y ago
  For communities not focused on policies there's a certain amount of fragmentation along what I would call sj/pc social norms. In my boardgame group, for example, if you intentionally refer to someone using pronouns they do not like you get ejected; in which case you could leave our regular meeting place and walk 4 blocks down to another gathering where that sort of behavior is tolerated. As far as expressing disagreement goes, the rule is the same as it's always been as far as I can tell: The degree to which a view outside the local Overton Window is expressible is directly proportional to how much the listeners respect your politics/thought process/moral grounding and how far outside the Overton Window the view is. The more the listener respects your politics/thought process/moral grounding, the more radical the idea you can argue to them without being dismissed. Go too radical for someone who doesn't know you well and you lose the listener. So in direct response to your question, I'm very comfortable stating disagreement on topics that it's socially acceptable to disagree about generally and am comfortable disagreeing about anything with certain specific groups of people. This is, as far as I can tell, the most any society has ever achieved. A Bay Area neoreactionary will be shunned by most for expressing their belief that a woman's place is in the home just as a progressive in Birmingham, Alabama would be shunned for suggesting there's nothing wrong with abortion. I would go so far as to say that if this level of self-censorship is new to someone then they have been fortunate to spend much of their life in communities in which their views fit comfortably inside the local Overton Window; for everyone else this is normal.
  - monksy 8y ago
    Having the rule about pronouns is what I was referring to. Just having that rule makes people afraid of being rejected from the group from a slip up like that. (Thus creating censorship) Personally, I avoid groups that mandiate things like that or I'll aggressively reject that rule. (I'll let them know that it's a bad rule and I will speak up on it frequently.. will I intentionally treat the people who feel the need to have a different pronoun than what they're percieved badly.. no) However, I realize that I'm different and I don't tolerate bullies.
    - 8y ago

RickS 8y ago

re: 1 -- i've yet to see this ever happen to anyone I know. In fact, i've seen a handful of sketchy situations where it might even be warranted, and it still hasn't happened. The thing I see all the time, online and off? Comments like yours where people (mostly guys) self censor out of fear of this hypothetical life catastrophy. I think we dudes are hurting ourselves here. Far more than PC culture wants to harm us (which seems on the internet like a lot, but in reality, is effectively nil)